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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Social Chat > Other Mysteries > A6 Murders

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  #4121  
Old 03-20-2017, 05:19 AM
Sherlock Houses Sherlock Houses is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GUT View Post
Two points

1. Is there even the slightest evidence that the suit had buttons not a zip

2. Where is the evidence that that was the only suit he owned.

Two replies..

1. There is no reference [at least none I can find anywhere] as to whether the trousers were buttoned or zipped. My guess is that back in 1961 it was more common for suits [especially individually designed ones] to have buttoned flies. Far safer [and classier] than zipped flies.

2. You need to re-read my post more carefully as i never implied that Hanratty had only one suit. He also had a green suit which he took to Burtols on the morning of August 21st to be cleaned and altered. It is widely understood and accepted that Hanratty was wearing the Hepworth suit during the week of the murder.
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"Justice is an ideal which transcends the expedience of the State, or the sensitivities of Government officials, or private individuals. IT HAS TO BE PURSUED WHATEVER THE COST IN PEACE OF MIND TO THOSE CONCERNED." --'Justice of the Peace' [July 12th 1975]
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  #4122  
Old 03-20-2017, 06:53 AM
Spitfire Spitfire is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherlock Houses View Post
Oops and here's silly old me googling the term and thinking there was a discernable difference between a bespoke suit and the usual made to measure suit.

I must try harder...................
That's ok.

I am pretty certain that the Hepworth's suit would have been made to measure rather than fully bespoke in the traditional Savile Row meaning of the term, in any event buttons or zips would have been an option.

The trousers to the suit were produced in court as an exhibit and as the zip point was not taken by the ever alert Mr Sherrard, one has to assume now that there is nothing in the point.
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  #4123  
Old 03-20-2017, 07:14 AM
Sherlock Houses Sherlock Houses is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfire View Post
The trousers to the suit were produced in court as an exhibit and as the zip point was not taken by the ever alert Mr Sherrard one has to assume now that there is nothing in the point.
Perhaps you can enlighten us all by telling us the exhibit number of the Hepworth trousers ??

Rather strange and remiss of 'The ever alert Mr Sherrard' [as you call him] not to insist on Michael Clark, or even a photo of him, making an appearance at the trial for comparison purposes with Hanratty.
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"A body of men, HOLDING THEMSELVES ACCOUNTABLE TO NOBODY, ought not to be trusted by anybody." --Thomas Paine ["Rights of Man"]

"Justice is an ideal which transcends the expedience of the State, or the sensitivities of Government officials, or private individuals. IT HAS TO BE PURSUED WHATEVER THE COST IN PEACE OF MIND TO THOSE CONCERNED." --'Justice of the Peace' [July 12th 1975]
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  #4124  
Old 03-20-2017, 08:39 AM
Spitfire Spitfire is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherlock Houses View Post
Perhaps you can enlighten us all by telling us the exhibit number of the Hepworth trousers ??
I would not presume to be enlightening everyone, as some may already know, but I believe that the trousers in question became Exhibit 43 at the trial.
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  #4125  
Old 03-20-2017, 09:18 AM
NickB NickB is offline
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Moreover the tailor’s assistant from Hepworth’s who served Hanratty, William Clapp, gave evidence on 25-Jan-62 and was asked to identify the trousers.
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  #4126  
Old 03-20-2017, 05:02 PM
Sherlock Houses Sherlock Houses is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NickB View Post
Moreover the tailor’s assistant from Hepworth’s who served Hanratty, William Clapp, gave evidence on 25-Jan-62 and was asked to identify the trousers.
However nothing was mentioned by William James Clapp as to whether the trousers had a buttoned or zipped fly.
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"A body of men, HOLDING THEMSELVES ACCOUNTABLE TO NOBODY, ought not to be trusted by anybody." --Thomas Paine ["Rights of Man"]

"Justice is an ideal which transcends the expedience of the State, or the sensitivities of Government officials, or private individuals. IT HAS TO BE PURSUED WHATEVER THE COST IN PEACE OF MIND TO THOSE CONCERNED." --'Justice of the Peace' [July 12th 1975]
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  #4127  
Old 03-24-2017, 12:41 PM
moste moste is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherlock Houses View Post
On July 8th 1961 James Hanratty, accompanied by his brother Michael, went to Hepworth's Tailors in Burnt Oak to be measured for a bespoke suit. A bespoke suit differs from a made to measure one in that is individually crafted to a customer's own personal specifications and cut from a pattern drafted from scratch.

He collected the suit 6 weeks later on August 18th and started wearing it from that point onwards.

If the trousers to that Hepworth suit had a buttoned fly as opposed to a zipped fly then that eliminates, at one stroke, James Hanratty from being the A6 murderer.

Why ?? you might well ask.



Because Valerie Storie's own testimony at the Bedford trial was that the murderer..."undid the zip of the fly of his trousers, pushed me back into a half-lying, half-sitting position, leaning against the bag of washing, and without removing any more of his clothing he raped me."
Very good point SH.

However, I feel certain that if pressed on the subject ,Ms. Storie would simply have parried the questioning with. 'Well ... I was about to be sickeningly violated,'(pause for effect,and allow pity to resurface)' I may be wrong about the method that his trousers fastened,' (one of her little frowns to add emphases ) 'the point is he was readying himself to rape me, what difference does it make'?
None of the jury after this would have given a hoot about zipper or buttons,and that little matter would have gone under the carpet along with the misidentification farce,Acotts adjusted notes,the use of self admitted liars as witnesses,and the host of other oddities and screw ups that favoured the prosecution.

Last edited by moste : 03-24-2017 at 12:45 PM. Reason: Spelling
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  #4128  
Old 03-26-2017, 06:00 AM
Sherlock Houses Sherlock Houses is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moste View Post

However, I feel certain that if pressed on the subject ,Ms. Storie would simply have parried the questioning with. 'Well ... I was about to be sickeningly violated,'(pause for effect,and allow pity to resurface)' I may be wrong about the method that his trousers fastened,' (one of her little frowns to add emphases ) 'the point is he was readying himself to rape me, what difference does it make'?
That would not surprise me in the slightest, Moste, given Valerie's penchant for forgetfulness, misidentifications, contradictory statements and economy with the truth when it best suited her interests.
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"A body of men, HOLDING THEMSELVES ACCOUNTABLE TO NOBODY, ought not to be trusted by anybody." --Thomas Paine ["Rights of Man"]

"Justice is an ideal which transcends the expedience of the State, or the sensitivities of Government officials, or private individuals. IT HAS TO BE PURSUED WHATEVER THE COST IN PEACE OF MIND TO THOSE CONCERNED." --'Justice of the Peace' [July 12th 1975]
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  #4129  
Old 03-26-2017, 08:11 AM
OneRound OneRound is offline
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Sherlock,

I'm on record as being highly critical of the (apparent) weight that was given to Valerie Storie's identification evidence. However, I consider it staggeringly unfair of you and moste to judge her here on the basis of an answer she never gave to a question she was never asked about something you don't know and which Hanratty's defence counsel may have anyway checked and dismissed.

Regards,

OneRound
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  #4130  
Old 03-26-2017, 10:41 AM
moste moste is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRound View Post
Sherlock,

I'm on record as being highly critical of the (apparent) weight that was given to Valerie Storie's identification evidence. However, I consider it staggeringly unfair of you and moste to judge her here on the basis of an answer she never gave to a question she was never asked about something you don't know and which Hanratty's defence counsel may have anyway checked and dismissed.

Regards,

OneRound
Oh! Ok.
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