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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Social Chat > Other Mysteries > A6 Murders

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  #4111  
Old 03-13-2017, 09:35 AM
cobalt cobalt is offline
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Regarding Trower's evidence, as reported here, could anyone clarify his timings?
He says that he picked up Hogan and 'later' they saw loads of police swarming around the car. From the article it could be read that that the police arrived in the morning, just after his 'sighting; but does Trower's 'later' refer to the early evening when they were returning home?
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  #4112  
Old 03-13-2017, 10:03 AM
NickB NickB is offline
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Early evening. I believe he made an arrangement with the police then to make a statement the following morning.
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  #4113  
Old 03-14-2017, 04:10 AM
Spitfire Spitfire is offline
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Thanks Nick for the Sunday Times articles which I had not seen before.

It puts the France suicide into perspective. If we think that suicide is an irrational act, then it is pointless to rationalise it but there were definitely other things going on in Dixie's life which might have led him to take his own life.

As to Hanratty's driving, I would be interested to know if anyone ever saw James Hanratty behind the wheel of a car after he left prison in March 1961 and before the abduction at Dorney Reach on 22 August 1961. That he was a bad driver in September 1961 is pretty well evidenced, but was he a complete or almost complete novice at driving in the previous August? As no evidence was called on this point, I assume that no one (including Hanratty hisself) could give such evidence.

Paul Foot has described Hanratty as an accomplished car thief and expert driver. This was definitely not the case.

As to the timings of the Avondale sighting; it seems that Skillett saw a grey Morris Minor which he and Blackhall subsequently identified as 847 BHN, and which Skillett eventually identified Hanratty as the driver. Skillett said that his car's clock said 7.00 am. Trower settled on 7.08 am as the time when he saw the grey car enter Avondale Crescent from Redbridge Lane East. Hogan says that he saw a fawn or cream Morris Minor enter Avondale Crescent before Trower, who was 20 minutes late, arrived.

On the 1966 Panorama programme, Hogan said he was at the door of his flat at 6.45 am when the Morris 1000 (which had now acquired a grey colour) turned into Avondale Crescent.

The Panorama team reconstructed a Morris Minor driving along Redbridge Lane East and turning into Avondale Crescent with the camera at or near Hogan's door. They also had Trower saying the driver was definitely Hanratty, and Hogan saying it was definitely not him. The reconstruction demonstrated the difficulty of making an identification, but that did not seem to deter either of the witnesses from making such identification.
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  #4114  
Old 03-17-2017, 02:58 AM
Sherlock Houses Sherlock Houses is offline
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Default The amazing James Trower............

Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt View Post
Regarding Trower's evidence, as reported here, could anyone clarify his timings?
He says that he picked up Hogan and 'later' they saw loads of police swarming around the car. From the article it could be read that that the police arrived in the morning, just after his 'sighting; but does Trower's 'later' refer to the early evening when they were returning home?

Just to clarify matters re. James Trower's 'sighting' it is very significant that he had forgotten all about it for a full 24 hours, indicative of just how trivial and commonplace an everyday occurence like this [on British roads] was and still is. He didn't make his statement until the evening of August 24th, a day and a half after his 'sighting' .The following extract from Michael Sherrard's cross-examination of Trower at Bedford is very revealing.....

MS: "Did you notice anything about the number plate ?"
JT: "No."
MS: "So what it comes to is that you really had just a glimpse of the man as he passed ?"
JT: "I would say about three seconds."
MS: "Three seconds in all. The car is moving all the time ?"
JT: "Yes."
MS: "And your car is in between you ?"
JT: "Yes."
MS: "Then the incident goes out of your mind, certainly for 24 hours ?"
JT: "I did not know anything about it."
MS: "When the police first mentioned it to you, it did not mean anything to you ?"
JT: "It did not dawn on me at all."
MS: "Then Paddy Hogan said something and you go and see the police again ?"
JT: "Yes."
MS: "What it really comes to, as I understand it, is that, having seen somebody for a couple of seconds in those circumstances, which I suggest were not very clear and good, you can then six weeks later just go up to somebody in a second and say, 'That is the man' ?"
JT: "Yes."




Speaks absolute volumes on behalf of Trower doesn't it ?
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  #4115  
Old 03-17-2017, 07:18 AM
j.kettle1 j.kettle1 is offline
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And if the car was doing 30mph for example, then in those three seconds it would have travelled 44 yards.
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  #4116  
Old 03-17-2017, 09:14 AM
Sherlock Houses Sherlock Houses is offline
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Default The Hepworth suit, a crucial question.....

On July 8th 1961 James Hanratty, accompanied by his brother Michael, went to Hepworth's Tailors in Burnt Oak to be measured for a bespoke suit. A bespoke suit differs from a made to measure one in that is individually crafted to a customer's own personal specifications and cut from a pattern drafted from scratch.

He collected the suit 6 weeks later on August 18th and started wearing it from that point onwards.

If the trousers to that Hepworth suit had a buttoned fly as opposed to a zipped fly then that eliminates, at one stroke, James Hanratty from being the A6 murderer.

Why ?? you might well ask.

Because Valerie Storie's own testimony at the Bedford trial was that the murderer..."undid the zip of the fly of his trousers, pushed me back into a half-lying, half-sitting position, leaning against the bag of washing, and without removing any more of his clothing he raped me."
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"A body of men, HOLDING THEMSELVES ACCOUNTABLE TO NOBODY, ought not to be trusted by anybody." --Thomas Paine ["Rights of Man"]

"Justice is an ideal which transcends the expedience of the State, or the sensitivities of Government officials, or private individuals. IT HAS TO BE PURSUED WHATEVER THE COST IN PEACE OF MIND TO THOSE CONCERNED." --'Justice of the Peace' [July 12th 1975]

Last edited by Sherlock Houses : 03-17-2017 at 09:29 AM. Reason: To correct a spelling
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  #4117  
Old 03-18-2017, 10:35 PM
Spitfire Spitfire is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherlock Houses View Post
A bespoke suit differs from a made to measure one in that is individually crafted to a customer's own personal specifications and cut from a pattern drafted from scratch.
A bespoke suit is made to measure.
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  #4118  
Old 03-18-2017, 10:41 PM
GUT GUT is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherlock Houses View Post
On July 8th 1961 James Hanratty, accompanied by his brother Michael, went to Hepworth's Tailors in Burnt Oak to be measured for a bespoke suit. A bespoke suit differs from a made to measure one in that is individually crafted to a customer's own personal specifications and cut from a pattern drafted from scratch.

He collected the suit 6 weeks later on August 18th and started wearing it from that point onwards.

If the trousers to that Hepworth suit had a buttoned fly as opposed to a zipped fly then that eliminates, at one stroke, James Hanratty from being the A6 murderer.

Why ?? you might well ask.

Because Valerie Storie's own testimony at the Bedford trial was that the murderer..."undid the zip of the fly of his trousers, pushed me back into a half-lying, half-sitting position, leaning against the bag of washing, and without removing any more of his clothing he raped me."

Two points

1. Is there even the slightest evidence that the suit had buttons not a zip

2. Where is the evidence that that was the only suit he owned.
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  #4119  
Old 03-19-2017, 07:08 AM
NickB NickB is offline
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1. No, the trousers were exhibits at court.

2. France testified that Hanratty had several suits.
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  #4120  
Old 03-20-2017, 05:04 AM
Sherlock Houses Sherlock Houses is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfire View Post
A bespoke suit is made to measure.
Oops and here's silly old me googling the term and thinking there was a discernable difference between a bespoke suit and the usual made to measure suit.

I must try harder...................
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"Justice is an ideal which transcends the expedience of the State, or the sensitivities of Government officials, or private individuals. IT HAS TO BE PURSUED WHATEVER THE COST IN PEACE OF MIND TO THOSE CONCERNED." --'Justice of the Peace' [July 12th 1975]
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