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  #21  
Old 07-12-2016, 12:18 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Originally Posted by miss marple View Post
There has been a lot of nonsense about this question what it is quite straightfoward. There is no mystery.

Miss Marple
What you can say is that you personally feel that the issue is nonsense. I don“t agree at all - it was never a common thing to separate spouses on churchyards.

You can also say that you personally think that it is a straightforward question involving no mystery. You cannot, however, state it as a fact, since it is no such thing at all. If you were correct, it would exclude the possibility that Elizabeth Lechmere or somebody close to her actively chose not to have her buried alongside Charles Lechmere, or even close to his grave.
Can you exclude that, miss Marple? If so, on what grounds?
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  #22  
Old 07-12-2016, 12:19 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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By choosing not to have her husband buried in a private plot (which she could almost certainly have afforded ) Mrs Lechmere chose not to spend eternity with her old man. Whether that tells us anything about their relationship is a moot point.
There you go, Mr Barnett - exactly so.
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  #23  
Old 07-12-2016, 08:20 AM
miss marple miss marple is offline
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As the the believers of the Lechmere is a serial killer, don't except any evidence that disagrees with them, it really does not matter what one says, but for those people who wish to be more informed about Victorian burial practice I will reply.
When Tower Hamlets Cemetery opened in 1841, it was a cemetery for the working class of East London. It has more common graves than other London Cemeteries and a majority of its graves were common graves. There were many complaints about the cost of burials in the 19th century and common graves kept the price down for working people. Money instead could be spent on the funeral, which had greater cultural significance. Charles Booth comments on the elborateness of working class funerals,, a good send off was more important than the grave. My great grandmother a londoner, had an elaborate funeral after the war but was buried in a common grave.

A random bill for a Scotish funeral is irrelevant. I have seen many working class bills for funerals of the period, averaging about £19 00. The total cost of that scottish funeral was £14. An internment was the cost of opening the grave and gravediggers If you are spending money on a private grave, It is going to total on average £15 £25 for a cheap one, depending on location and cemetery. On top of that after a year or so you have to pay for a headstone and possible maintenance, but saving money on a common grave means you can at least splash out on the funeral. Elizabeth Lechmere had lost the breadwinner, we don't know how much she gave to her children, but 2 hundred odd pounds will have to keep her going for a few years, wasting money on a private grave would not be an option. She was also buried in a common grave. I don't see her children wasting money on a private grave either for her.

Fisherman you seem not to understand, that it is impossible to bury two people in the same common grave twenty years apart, you do not ''chose'' the location of a common grave , it is where there is a space. The graves filled up very quickly. several people a week being buried, plus London was being bombed to bits, more bodies in 1940. There are thousands of bodies buried in Tower Hamlets. You don't see the big picture.

There are none so blind as those who won't see,

Miss Marple

Last edited by miss marple : 07-12-2016 at 08:30 AM.
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  #24  
Old 07-12-2016, 08:42 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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miss marple: As the the believers of the Lechmere is a serial killer, don't except any evidence that disagrees with them, it really does not matter what one says, but for those people who wish to be more informed about Victorian burial practice I will reply.

That“s a very low class remark, even coming from you, miss marple. To begin with, you are having all sorts of trouble youself accepting any evidence that points to the carman, so a bit of self-criticism may be called for here.
And I am not having any trouble at all accepting that the evidence can point to both guilt and innocence; I have said so dozens of times. Maybe you were on the loo on those occasions, I don“t know.
Generally speaking, I find it hard to accept suggestions that are inferior to other suggestions, and I will not do so to keep you or anybody else happy. Take the name issue; there is not a single example of the carman ever using Cross other than in combination with the murder inquest, whereas there are 100+ examples of him using Lechmere.
That means that I am less inclined to believe that he called himself Cross, and VERY inclined to accept that he called himself Lechmere. If these things nag you, I suggest you get another hobby, because that“s how it works.


When Tower Hamlets Cemetery opened in 1841, it was a cemetery for the working class of East London. It has more common graves than other London Cemetery and a majority of its graves were common graves. There were many complaints about the cost of burials in the 19th century and common graves kept the price down for working people. Money instead could be spent on the funeral, which had greater cultural significance. Charles Booth comments on the elborateness of working class funerals,, a good send off was more important than the grave. My great grandmother a londoner, had an elaborate funeral after the war but was buried in a common grave.

All very interesting, I“m sure. But how does it affect the subject at hand? Answer: It does not.

A random bill for a Scotish funeral is irrelevant. I have seen many working class bills for funerals of the period, averaging about £19 00. The total cost of that scottish funeral was £14. An internment was the cost of opening the grave and gravediggers If you are spending money on a private grave, It is going to total on average £15 £25 for a cheap one, depending on location and cemetery. On top of that after a year or so you have to pay for a headstone and possible maintenance, but saving money on a common grave means you can at least splash out on the funeral. Elizabeth Lechmere had lost the breadwinner, we don't know how much she gave to her children, but 2 hundred odd pounds will have to keep her going for a few years, wasting money on a private grave would not be an option. She was also buried in a common grave. I don't see her children wasting money on a private grave either for her.

Wasting? So those who choose private graves "waste" money? Is that it? How wonderful - then we can easily conclude that nobody would ever choose a private grave!
Then again, what are all these hundreds of thousands of private graves doing here...?

You are trying to establish that the Lechmeres would have regarded a private grave as a waste of money. That won“t wash since we cannot possibly know that.

I have suggested that there MAY have been a motive of dislike between the spouses behind the choice of burial spots. Just like Mr Barnett points out, when a common grave was chosen for Charles Lechmere, Elizabeth was guaranteed not to be buried alongside him. Such a decision is therefore totally in line with my suggestion - although we cannot possibly know what reasoning lay behind the choice.

I admit that flat out - and it would be nice if you could muster the courage to do the same thing.

Fisherman you seem not to understand, that it is impossible to bury two people in the same common grave twenty years apart.

Oh yes, I understand that perfectly. And if Elizabeth Lechmere was as perceptive and hated the guts of her husband, then she could use that knowledge to guarantee herself a burial spot away from him. Do YOU realize THAT...?

The graves filled up very quickly. several people a week being buried, plus London was being bombed to bits, more bodies in 1940. There are thousands of bodies buried in Tower Hamlets. You don't see the big picture.

I have been to Tower Hamlets, and I have spoken to one of the keepers who informed me about the burials. I have studied and written about "The Magnificent Seven". I have stood by Charles Lechmeres and Elizabeth Lechmeres graves. I even know where the earth came from that covered Charles“ grave a second time. Not only do I see the big picture, I also see right through your plot.

There are none so blind as those who won't see,

And there are none so disagreeable as those who won“t agree with you, eh? You see (or not), we can both be right. The thing is, nobody knows (although you, as usual, claim that you do).

Last edited by Fisherman : 07-12-2016 at 08:51 AM.
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  #25  
Old 07-12-2016, 08:51 AM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
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Originally Posted by miss marple View Post
As the the believers of the Lechmere is a serial killer, don't except any evidence that disagrees with them, it really does not matter what one says, but for those people who wish to be more informed about Victorian burial practice I will reply.
When Tower Hamlets Cemetery opened in 1841, it was a cemetery for the working class of East London. It has more common graves than other London Cemetery and a majority of its graves were common graves. There were many complaints about the cost of burials in the 19th century and common graves kept the price down for working people. Money instead could be spent on the funeral, which had greater cultural significance. Charles Booth comments on the elborateness of working class funerals,, a good send off was more important than the grave. My great gradmother a londoner, had an elaborate funeral after the war but was buried in a common grave.

A random bill for a Scotish funeral is irrelevant. I have seen many working class bills for funerals of the period, averaging about £19 00. The total cost of that scottish funeral was £14. If you are spending money on a private grave, It is going to total on average £15 for a cheap one, depending on location and cemetery. On top of that after a year or so you have to pay for a headstone and possible maintenance, but saving money on a common grave means you can at least splash out on the funeral. Elizabeth Lechmere had lost the breadwinner, we don't know how much she gave to her children, but 2 hundred odd pounds will have to keep her going for a few years, wasting money on a private grave would not be an option. She was also buried in a common grave. I don't see her children wasting money on a private grave either for her.

Fisherman you seem not to understand, that it is impossible to bury two people in the same common grave twenty years apart. The graves filled up very quickly. several people a week being buried, plus London was being bombed to bits, more bodies in 1940. There are thousands of bodies buried in Tower Hamlets. You don't see the big picture.

There are none so blind as those who won't see,

Miss Marple
Miss M,

You started this thread by telling us the Lechmere family couldn't have afforded to buy a private plot, apparently without knowing how much money the family had or how much a plot would have cost. You also misunderstood which medal Thomas Lechmere had been awarded and suggested that he had been awarded the George Cross for saving lives during the tube disaster. (Just before you told us it was all hushed up 'by Churchill').

The point you seem to miss is that it was the initial decision to bury Charles in a communal grave that made it impossible (or at least extremely unlikely) that the couple would end up in the same plot. That decision would have been made by the Lechmere family. Economy may have been at the forefront of their minds when they made that decision. I presume you've never come across examples of people getting themselves into debt to give their loved ones a decent burial? The newly bereaved often do not act in the most financially sensible way. We really have no idea what motivated their decision. That's my view, and Christer's too, judging by his responses.

As for your numerous references to East End funerals, I've been to a number over the years and none of them were the sort of black-plumed horse affairs you seem to think were de-rigueur for Eastenders.

I would suggest the 1920 Scottish bill does provide some idea of how much funerals cost at the time. If you have some evidence that East End burial plots were 3 times as expensive as Scottish ones, please let us see it.

Gary

Last edited by MrBarnett : 07-12-2016 at 08:58 AM.
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  #26  
Old 07-12-2016, 10:25 AM
miss marple miss marple is offline
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Mr Barnett
I see you are now reduced to nitpicking nonsense, as you have no arguement.
Any unbiased person who reads my threads can understand them.

I admit I made a bad guess at the george medal but thats all, I should not have mentioned it.

Your point about going to funerals over the last few years is ?

The hayday for the horse / hearse went on till about the 1950s, but i was chatting to a funeral director a while ago at an event, who had a magnificent Edwardian glass hearse and two black plumbed black horses, He said they found the hearse in a barn in Essex and refubished it. They were now doing about 300 vic type funerals a year. This is in London and I have seen a couple of such funerals in Hackney. There is a revival. I di nit know what relevant this has to the Lechmeres. I dont know what part of the country you come from.

I am sick of it. Continuing your rubbishing and trashing thr reputation of a hard working family man with no proof what so ever if it gives you pleasure.

It does not matter, he cant answer back.


Miss Marple
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  #27  
Old 07-12-2016, 11:03 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Originally Posted by MrBarnett View Post
We really have no idea what motivated their decision. That's my view, and Christer's too, judging by his responses.

Gary
You may regard that as confirmed, Gary. It is my exact point.

Last edited by Fisherman : 07-12-2016 at 11:14 AM.
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  #28  
Old 07-12-2016, 11:08 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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miss marple:
Any unbiased person who reads my threads can understand them.

Wow, I mean .... wow!!

I am sick of it. Continuing your rubbishing and trashing thr reputation of a hard working family man with no proof what so ever if it gives you pleasure.

Double wow. "If it gives you pleasure"...

Last edited by Fisherman : 07-12-2016 at 11:12 AM.
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  #29  
Old 07-12-2016, 11:11 AM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miss marple View Post
Mr Barnett
I see you are now reduced to nitpicking nonsense, as you have no arguement.
Any unbiased person who reads my threads can understand them.

I admit I made a bad guess at the george medal but thats all, I should not have mentioned it.

Your point about going to funerals over the last few years is ?

The hayday for the horse / hearse went on till about the 1950s, but i was chatting to a funeral director a while ago at an event, who had a magnificent Edwardian glass hearse and two black plumbed black horses, He said they found the hearse in a barn in Essex and refubished it. They were now doing about 300 vic type funerals a year. This is in London and I have seen a couple of such funerals in Hackney. There is a revival. I di nit know what relevant this has to the Lechmeres. I dont know what part of the country you come from.

I am sick of it. Continuing your rubbishing and trashing thr reputation of a hard working family man with no proof what so ever if it gives you pleasure.

It does not matter, he cant answer back.


Miss Marple
Nitpicking?

You started this thread by saying you wanted to clear up certain misconceptions.

You then stated that the Lechmeres couldn't have afforded a private plot (a misconception). They could have easily afforded it, but chose not to. In your version of events, the decision was out of their hands. Rather than clearing up a misconception you were fabricating one.

Incidentally the Bethnal Green Tube Disaster was reported in the press. It was the government report that was not published, largely because it would have revealed that Bethnal Green Council had repeatedly applied for funds to improve safety at the station and had been refused.

If you've actually read what I've said you'll know that my view is that we have no idea why the family didn't secure a private plot. It could have been for financial reasons and it could (sorry, there's no getting around it) have been because there was no love lost between. Mr and Mrs L.

I've no idea which. I'm not sure my position of looking at the facts and being unable to come to a conclusion is any less respectful to the departed than yours if ignoring the facts and misleading people.

Gary
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  #30  
Old 07-12-2016, 12:31 PM
Pierre Pierre is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miss marple View Post
As the the believers of the Lechmere is a serial killer, don't except any evidence that disagrees with them, it really does not matter what one says, but for those people who wish to be more informed about Victorian burial practice I will reply.
When Tower Hamlets Cemetery opened in 1841, it was a cemetery for the working class of East London. It has more common graves than other London Cemeteries and a majority of its graves were common graves. There were many complaints about the cost of burials in the 19th century and common graves kept the price down for working people. Money instead could be spent on the funeral, which had greater cultural significance. Charles Booth comments on the elborateness of working class funerals,, a good send off was more important than the grave. My great grandmother a londoner, had an elaborate funeral after the war but was buried in a common grave.

A random bill for a Scotish funeral is irrelevant. I have seen many working class bills for funerals of the period, averaging about £19 00. The total cost of that scottish funeral was £14. An internment was the cost of opening the grave and gravediggers If you are spending money on a private grave, It is going to total on average £15 £25 for a cheap one, depending on location and cemetery. On top of that after a year or so you have to pay for a headstone and possible maintenance, but saving money on a common grave means you can at least splash out on the funeral. Elizabeth Lechmere had lost the breadwinner, we don't know how much she gave to her children, but 2 hundred odd pounds will have to keep her going for a few years, wasting money on a private grave would not be an option. She was also buried in a common grave. I don't see her children wasting money on a private grave either for her.

Fisherman you seem not to understand, that it is impossible to bury two people in the same common grave twenty years apart, you do not ''chose'' the location of a common grave , it is where there is a space. The graves filled up very quickly. several people a week being buried, plus London was being bombed to bits, more bodies in 1940. There are thousands of bodies buried in Tower Hamlets. You don't see the big picture.

There are none so blind as those who won't see,

Miss Marple
Hi Miss Marple,

Fisherman is hypothesizing that Charles Lechmere and his wife had some problems which would explain why Charles was placed in a common grave.

Do you happen to know how common such procedures were? Is there any statistics for married couples having made a choice for a common grave for one of them?

Regards, Pierre
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