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  #21  
Old 05-24-2016, 01:11 PM
MysterySinger MysterySinger is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
Hi,

What might have been the "certain circumstances" he is talking about?

"The Times.
Saturday, 24 November 1888.

PARLIAMENT.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
FRIDAY, November 23.
THE WHITECHAPEL MURDERS.

Mr. HUNTER asked the Home Secretary whether he was prepared in the case of the Whitechapel murders, other than that of the woman Kelly, to offer a free pardon to any person not being the actual perpetrator of the crimes.

Mr. MATTHEWS. - I should be quite prepared to offer a pardon in the earlier Whitechapel murders if the information before me had suggested that such an offer would assist in the detection of the murderer.

In the case of Kelly there were certain circumstances which were wanting in the earlier cases, and which made it more probable that there were other persons who, at any rate, after the crime, had assisted the murderer.


Any suggestions?

Kind regards, Pierre
This exchange in the House on Friday, November 23rd seems a little strange. Either stage managed or framed to solicit particular information about the murder of Kelly. Why would Mr Hunter be asking whether the Home Secretary was prepared to offer a free pardon to any person not being the actual perpetrator of the crimes when it had widely been reported that this would be the case.

London Nov 10 - Gen. Warren, Chief of the Metropolitan Police, has issued a proclamation offering a free pardon to any accomplice the Whitechapel murderer may have had, provided he will give information which will lead to the murderer's apprehension.

So the pardon was well established. What was new in the question in the House was in the phrase "other than in the case of the woman Kelly" and that was raised by the questionner - Mr Hunter. It was also, therefore already known that the pardon would be for the earlier murders only (at that point).

Was this simply a way of amending the terms of the pardon officially or can anything else be read into the timing of this question?
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  #22  
Old 05-24-2016, 01:16 PM
Pierre Pierre is offline
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Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
Hi Pat

I don't think he could have been sent away at the stage of the question in the house.

Given Cox's statement and the suggestion he was watched for sometime, the time frame does not seem right.

However it is very possible that the lead they had (mentioned by Cox) could well be linked to the statement of Matthews. it may well be some unreported sighting.

Unlike the hypothesis I suggested to Pierre, this would not be a high level cover up, but silent surveillance, so has not to tip off the family/friends and thus the suspect himself.

Steve
Hi Steve,

the suggestion here is that at the point in time where Kelly was murdered, something changed (according to Cox and Matthews).

It coincided with another change: the murders stopped for some time. Just stating the obvious so everyone will see this.

Regards, Pierre
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  #23  
Old 05-24-2016, 01:28 PM
Pierre Pierre is offline
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QUOTE=MysterySinger;382163]

Quote:
What was new in the question in the House was in the phrase "other than in the case of the woman Kelly" and that was raised by the questionner - Mr Hunter.
A good observation.

Regards, Pierre
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  #24  
Old 05-24-2016, 01:30 PM
Pierre Pierre is offline
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QUOTE=Elamarna;382090]Hi Pat

Quote:
I don't think he could have been sent away at the stage of the question in the house.
But he could have been sent away earlier.

Regards, Pierre
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  #25  
Old 05-24-2016, 01:31 PM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
Hi Steve,

the suggestion here is that at the point in time where Kelly was murdered, something changed (according to Cox and Matthews).

It coincided with another change: the murders stopped for some time. Just stating the obvious so everyone will see this.

Regards, Pierre
Pierre

I would not say something changed from the viewpoint of Cox and Matthews, rather something happened, there is a difference.

If Matthews is correct something came to light, after the Kelly murder, Cox would seem to support this view. What this something was I have no idea, A sighting which was withheld, seems a plausible idea, but there are certainly other options.

The murders did stop, if they started again is open to debate.
I think we both think they did, but maybe different victims. I see only Mackenzie as a possible, whereas you see the torso's as well.


Steve
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  #26  
Old 05-24-2016, 01:41 PM
Pierre Pierre is offline
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[quote=Elamarna;382169]
Quote:
Pierre

I would not say something changed from the viewpoint of Cox and Matthews, rather something happened, there is a difference.
Yes, I agree. Something happened, an event, and things changed.

Quote:
If Matthews is correct something came to light, after the Kelly murder, Cox would seem to support this view.
Something came to light. That can be our hypothesis. And also, the murders stopped for some months.
Quote:
What this something was I have no idea, A sighting which was withheld, seems a plausible idea, but there are certainly other options.
A new hypothesis here: Letīs just assume that they had found the killer and could not put him to trial, could not kill him, and could not place him in an asylum - would they just let him be or would they intervene in his life? Would they for example send him away? What would they do, given that he must be stopped?

What would they do with a hot potato? Drop it? Throw it away?

Quote:
The murders did stop, if they started again is open to debate.
I think we both think they did, but maybe different victims. I see only Mackenzie as a possible, whereas you see the torso's as well.
Yes, but only the ones during 1888-1889.

And there must be at least some sources for that hypothesis. One can not base an hypothesis on nothing. And both sources and hypotheses must be coherent. High standards for history. But difficult, Steve, since we seem to have so little.

Kind regards, Pierre

Last edited by Pierre : 05-24-2016 at 01:44 PM.
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  #27  
Old 05-24-2016, 01:46 PM
jerryd jerryd is offline
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[quote=Pierre;382172]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
What would they do with a hot potato? Drop it? Throw it away?
Try to frame him. Unfortunately, the potato had too much dirt on them to be able to frame him.
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  #28  
Old 05-24-2016, 01:49 PM
Pierre Pierre is offline
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[quote=jerryd;382174]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post

Try to frame him. Unfortunately, the potato had too much dirt on them to be able to frame him.
Intersting idea, Jerry. Could you elaborate a bit on it?

Kind regards, Pierre
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  #29  
Old 05-24-2016, 01:56 PM
packers stem packers stem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
I believe Michael was alluding to the robbery of the post office in Aldgate, which occurred at some time over the weekend of the double event, and linking it to the death of Eddowes (who may have used the alias Mary Ann Kelly) and Mary Jane Kelly by speculating that the police may have been looking for (and/or found) bank notes in the ashes of MJK's fireplace.
Thanks Joshua
It's an interesting point about the ashes.
I knew the doctors were sifting the ashes so I suspect they were looking for burnt heart remains
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  #30  
Old 05-24-2016, 02:30 PM
jerryd jerryd is offline
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[quote=Pierre;382175]
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerryd View Post

Intersting idea, Jerry. Could you elaborate a bit on it?

Kind regards, Pierre
Sure.

A prominent Post Office official inspected the scene a week after the murder. There were also two members of the RIC there. The Post Office in Aldgate, as Michael pointed out, was possibly robbed on the same night Eddowes was killed.

The Dublin Castle Scandal of 1884 involved the head of the Post Office in Dublin Castle who was allegedly involved having sex with young men. Some of these young men moved to London after the the scandal in Dublin and became involved with Charles Hammond in Cleveland Street. The brothel in Cleveland street was operating at the same time as the Ripper murders. The Cleveland street scandal involved young telegraph boys that worked for the post office. The men that were paying for sex with these young men included people of high status, such as, Lord Euston, Lord Arthur Somerset, a police official, bankers, high ranking soldiers, financiers and even possibly the heir to the throne, PAV and many other important men.

To make a long story short, the Cleveland affair began to crumble in June of 1889. Two men received "light sentences" for buggery, which was a major crime and should have been punished by a lot more time. The main players were all "tipped off" by a solicitor named Arthur Newton of their imminent arrests. The lead man in the Ripper case was pulled from Whitechapel to oversee the scandal. That would be Abberline. He dragged his feet on securing warrants which allowed Hammond and others to escape the country without punishment. By the time the dust settled, we are at September 1889 when the Pinchin Torso appears and then, all is quiet.

Last edited by jerryd : 05-24-2016 at 02:34 PM.
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