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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Mary Jane Kelly

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  #461  
Old 05-07-2017, 06:58 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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So where did the articles of a woman´s clothing come from and where did the cry "Oh, murder!" come from?
Apropos the clothing, it's already been noted that Kelly took in laundry and the occasional female lodger, so it's quite possible that some of the clothing did not belong to Kelly.
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  #462  
Old 05-07-2017, 07:29 AM
Roy Corduroy Roy Corduroy is offline
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Perhaps this is yet another groundless ripperological meme we can trace back to McCormick.
Now I know what the word 'meme' is, thank you Sam. Seen it all the time lately but no idea what it is.

So a meme is, in plain English, a hoary old chestnut.

Roy
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  #463  
Old 05-09-2017, 06:20 AM
Bridewell Bridewell is offline
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Actually, why couldn't it have been (Oh merde)????
Why not indeed? If such a cry was heard by a person with no knowledge of French it would be assumed to be "Oh, murder!". The 'oh' has always jarred with me anyway. Surely, if your life was at risk you'd just shout "Murder!" or, as others have postulated, "Help!"
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  #464  
Old 05-09-2017, 06:41 AM
Bridewell Bridewell is offline
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But did they?

According to the Echo's report of the inquest, Prater said:

"A black kitten, of which I am very fond, came to my bed, and rubbed itself against my face....it tried to get into the bed, and awoke me. That must have been about half-past four, as I heard the clock chiming. I pushed the kitten away...And, just as I pushed the kitten away I heard, "Oh! Murder!" It was as if it was a nightmare. It was just "Oh! Oh! (in a faint, gasping way) - Murder!"

So Prater is very clear, she heard the cry literally immediately after she heard "the clock" (which can only be the Spitalfields clock) chime (which she thought was the chime at 4.30).

But then according to the same report of the inquest, Lewis said:

"I woke at about half-past three. I heard Spitalfields clock strike...I could not sleep. I sat awake from then until a little before four o'clock, when I heard a female voice. It was a scream."

So, even allowing for the fact that Prater might have meant 3.30 or 4.00 rather than 4.30, the two accounts are completely different because Lewis said she heard the cry before 4am, and thus BEFORE the strike of the clock at that time, whereas Prater said she heard the cry AFTER the strike of the clock.

If their evidence is accurate they cannot have heard the same cry.
There is nothing in the half-hour chime to indicate which chime it was so the likelihood, it seems to me, is that both witnesses were truthful. Perhaps Mrs Prater heard the clock strike '3', then dozed off and was woken by the kitten just as the clock struck at 4.30. She might reasonably 9though incorrectly) assume that the time was 3.30.
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  #465  
Old 05-09-2017, 06:49 AM
Bridewell Bridewell is offline
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Strangulation using a cord is quiet, this is why it is used by special forces in combat. Apart from a faint gurgling noise, and possibly kicking out, there is nothing to call attention to the assault.
The mark of a cord would be obliterated when the throat was slashed, and Kelly's throat was slashed several times.
Would slashing the throat several times disguise a fracture of the hyoid bone typically found after strangulation? (Not disputing what you say - just posing the question as I don't know the answer).
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  #466  
Old 05-09-2017, 06:58 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Would slashing the throat several times disguise a fracture of the hyoid bone typically found after strangulation? (Not disputing what you say - just posing the question as I don't know the answer).
Bridewell,

it could and I say could have resulted in the Hyoid bone being severely damaged and in several pieces., Did they actually checking the Hyoid in 1888? I certainly don't ever recall it being mentioned in the cases in the Whitechapel.

Steve
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  #467  
Old 05-09-2017, 07:49 AM
Bridewell Bridewell is offline
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Bridewell,

it could and I say could have resulted in the Hyoid bone being severely damaged and in several pieces., Did they actually checking the Hyoid in 1888? I certainly don't ever recall it being mentioned in the cases in the Whitechapel.

Steve

Nor do I, though presumably they knew of it and what the significance of its fracture might be?
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  #468  
Old 05-09-2017, 07:58 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Nor do I, though presumably they knew of it and what the significance of its fracture might be?
I would not assume that as when mentioning strangulation there is no reference to it, perhaps they did not use it as a sign.

steve
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  #469  
Old 05-09-2017, 09:50 AM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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Originally Posted by Bridewell View Post
There is nothing in the half-hour chime to indicate which chime it was so the likelihood, it seems to me, is that both witnesses were truthful. Perhaps Mrs Prater heard the clock strike '3', then dozed off and was woken by the kitten just as the clock struck at 4.30. She might reasonably 9though incorrectly) assume that the time was 3.30.
Well if that's truly the case then I suggest it supports the notion that they heard different screams/cries at different times during the night bearing in mind that Prater said she heard a 'faint voice' while Lewis heard a loud scream (not to mention that Prater initially believed there to have been multiple cries).
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  #470  
Old 05-09-2017, 11:14 AM
Pierre Pierre is offline
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Well if that's truly the case then I suggest it supports the notion that they heard different screams/cries at different times during the night bearing in mind that Prater said she heard a 'faint voice' while Lewis heard a loud scream (not to mention that Prater initially believed there to have been multiple cries).
It does not support any "notion" that they heard "different cries". The reason for this is that testimony often has a variation over time even when given by the same person.

So there is no evidence for two different persons in the past screaming about murder from the perspective of the variation in the statements.

Here is the small set of statements we have from the police investigation and the inquest:

"...screams of murder about two or three times in a female voice" (Prater 1),"...she screamed out murder, I only heard it once" (Lewis 1), A cry of "oh, Murder!" in a "faint voice" (Prater 2), and "a female voice shout loudly one Murder! (Lewis 2).

As we see, and as you say yourself, the statements of Prater 1 and 2 differ.

In Prater 1 you have "screams of murder", i.e. multiple, in Prater 2 you have "oh, Murder!", i e. singular. This does not mean that Prater heard two different persons screaming, but if we follow your idea of two different scream(s) that interpretation would be more valid for Prater alone, since she made two different statements.

In Lewis 1 you have her own reflection "I only heard it once", and this means that there was not one or two or three screams in her description, but she describes exclusively what she heard herself (This does not mean that the sound of the scream(s) in reality was corresponding to her statement later given). It is a subjectice interpretation for herself as subject. In Lewis 2 you have "loudly" "one Murder". This may indicate that the "faint" cries heard by Prater did not reach Lewis and that only one cry was loud. As you see there are multiiple problems here.

So your idea is not valid, David.

Cheers, Pierre

Last edited by Pierre : 05-09-2017 at 11:18 AM.
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