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  #11  
Old 04-10-2017, 12:39 PM
John G John G is offline
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It's been argued that George Hutchinson may have murdered Kelly and therefore invented Astrachan Man to cover his tracks.

Just out of interest, as it ever been argued that Schwartz murdered Stride, similarly inventing BS man as a suspect? Although I accept the idea seems completely far fetched!
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  #12  
Old 04-10-2017, 01:21 PM
Harry D Harry D is offline
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Just out of interest, as it ever been argued that Schwartz murdered Stride, similarly inventing BS man as a suspect? Although I accept the idea seems completely far fetched!
Probably! There's nothing new under the sun.

However, I'm almost convinced Schwartz invented "BS Man" to protect the socialists club.
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  #13  
Old 04-12-2017, 06:14 PM
Robert St Devil Robert St Devil is offline
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john i think that would depend on whether or not you considered schwartz and lawende to be ,in cahoots, since both corroborated on the description of a man wearing a peaked cap. i,m considering that schwartz saw what he said michael and harry. i,m comfortable with men,s clubs being fronts for criminal activity; politics, business and crime go hand in hand. i just can,t reason out WHY the club would kill this girl so close to their club without covering up the crime.
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  #14  
Old 04-16-2017, 10:28 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry D View Post
Probably! There's nothing new under the sun.

However, I'm almost convinced Schwartz invented "BS Man" to protect the socialists club.


I keep getting Easter Sunday surprises. Its almost certain Schwartz is the red herring in the Stride murder investigation, and considering the way his story even suggests that the murder started with a street assault by a gentile, its surely a creation for the Clubs benefit, not a recollection.

Take Israel out of the equation altogether, then remove Brown, because at 12:45 he clearly saw the young couple also seen by Fanny and so he didnt see Liz Stride either, and then follow the story from PC Smiths departure at 12:35, and youll see a whole different scenario. Liz not being seen in ANY of Fannys occasional trips to the doorway between 12:30 and 1am, and certainly not after 12:50. But Spooner, Heschberg, and Kozebrodksi saw her during that 12:35-1am time frame. Dying, in the passageway.

Liz goes into the passageway to wait for someone or something after 12:35. Its there she is killed before 1am.
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  #15  
Old 04-16-2017, 10:52 AM
c.d. c.d. is offline
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"Its almost certain Schwartz is the red herring in the Stride murder investigation, and considering the way his story even suggests that the murder started with a street assault by a gentile, its surely a creation for the Clubs benefit, not a recollection.

Hello Michael,

"almost certain?" That seems just a tad strong when it is simply an allegation without proof to back it up. This was not the first murder in Whitechapel that Fall where a prostitute had her throat cut. Did anyone or any nearby place connected with those sites fall under immediate suspicion? Just because she was killed near the club it does not follow that the club therefore had to be involved. Lying to the police in a murder investigation is a serious business. Why take that chance rather than simply cooperate fully which is what they appear to have done?

c.d.
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  #16  
Old 04-16-2017, 11:04 AM
John G John G is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
[/b]
I keep getting Easter Sunday surprises. Its almost certain Schwartz is the red herring in the Stride murder investigation, and considering the way his story even suggests that the murder started with a street assault by a gentile, its surely a creation for the Clubs benefit, not a recollection.

Take Israel out of the equation altogether, then remove Brown, because at 12:45 he clearly saw the young couple also seen by Fanny and so he didnt see Liz Stride either, and then follow the story from PC Smiths departure at 12:35, and youll see a whole different scenario. Liz not being seen in ANY of Fannys occasional trips to the doorway between 12:30 and 1am, and certainly not after 12:50. But Spooner, Heschberg, and Kozebrodksi saw her during that 12:35-1am time frame. Dying, in the passageway.

Liz goes into the passageway to wait for someone or something after 12:35. Its there she is killed before 1am.
PC Smith almost certainly saw Stride between 12:40 and 12:45, which means Spooner's evidence, for example, can be safely discarded, particularly as he didn't even possess a watch.

This has been discussed at length in a previous thread: http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=9642&page=11

Last edited by John G : 04-16-2017 at 11:17 AM.
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  #17  
Old 04-16-2017, 11:33 AM
c.d. c.d. is offline
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If it is so blatantly obvious that Schwartz lied and there was in fact a club conspiracy how did the police miss that? The police apparently hated the club and this would have given them a golden opportunity to make trouble for them but there is zero evidence that the police felt that the club was somehow involved.

c.d.
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  #18  
Old 04-16-2017, 11:38 AM
John G John G is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c.d. View Post
If it is so blatantly obvious that Schwartz lied and there was in fact a club conspiracy how did the police miss that? The police apparently hated the club and this would have given them a golden opportunity to make trouble for them but there is zero evidence that the police felt that the club was somehow involved.

c.d.
I'm fairly convinced Schwartz lied, although I don't believe there was a club conspiracy. I think he acted independently.
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  #19  
Old 04-16-2017, 12:31 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John G View Post
I'm fairly convinced Schwartz lied, although I don't believe there was a club conspiracy. I think he acted independently.
Hi John
Why would he lie?
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  #20  
Old 04-17-2017, 12:27 AM
John G John G is offline
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Hi John
Why would he lie?
Hi Abby,

Well that's the $64, 000 question, although there were undoubtedly witnesses throughout the Ripper enquiry who either lied or gave dubious evidence. Perhaps he was hoping to sell his story to the newspapers?
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