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  #121  
Old 04-24-2017, 06:00 AM
Jon Guy Jon Guy is offline
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But the salient point is that both Long and Schwartz approached the men they saw from behind, so there's no reason to suppose (unless there's more to the source you mention) that Long's man was any more aware he was being watched than Schwartz's man.

Mrs Long would have walked right past Chapman and her companion just as the man seems to be propositioning her. So he would have been aware of Mrs Long just after he had said will you. He could abort

Whereas, BS Man had already thrown Stride down at the point he notices Schwartz. Too late to abort.
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  #122  
Old 04-24-2017, 07:42 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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I'd put it even lower. Fewer than 10 minutes would have been sufficient for the crude evisceration of Annie Chapman.
But Annies body temperature almost fooled the physicians Sam, she would have been warmer had she been found right after this cutting. And Phillips believed the cutting would have taken longer. I think using Cadosche as the start time makes the most sense in that regard.
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  #123  
Old 04-24-2017, 11:09 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Mrs Long would have walked right past Chapman and her companion just as the man seems to be propositioning her. So he would have been aware of Mrs Long just after he had said will you. He could abort

Whereas, BS Man had already thrown Stride down at the point he notices Schwartz. Too late to abort.
I appreciate that long held beliefs are hard to abandon, but again, for the umpteenth time, IF Cadosche was lying, then maybe Mrs Long saw Annie. If not, she didn't. Any evidence he was lying?
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  #124  
Old 04-24-2017, 11:48 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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But Annies body temperature almost fooled the physicians Sam, she would have been warmer had she been found right after this cutting. And Phillips believed the cutting would have taken longer.
I disagree with Phillips, who seems to have been thinking in terms of a surgical procedure, not a rip'n'slash raid on a woman's abdomen. In all seriousness, if that carnage took 10 minutes max I'd be amazed.
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I think using Cadosche as the start time makes the most sense in that regard.
I certainly think that using Cadoche as the benchmark makes a lot of sense, although I don't know quite how precise his time-keeping would have been, given the era we're talking about. Personally, I don't feel that the discrepancy between his and Elizabeth Long's (estimated) timings is too much of an issue.
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  #125  
Old 04-24-2017, 12:51 PM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is online now
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I disagree with Phillips, who seems to have been thinking in terms of a surgical procedure, not a rip'n'slash raid on a woman's abdomen. In all seriousness, if that carnage took 10 minutes max I'd be amazed.
I tend to agree, but Phillips gave two times at inquest;

"The Coroner: Can you give any idea how long it would take to perform the incisions found on the body?
Dr. Phillips: I think I can guide you by saying that I myself could not have performed all the injuries I saw on that woman, and effect them, even without a struggle, under a quarter of an hour. If I had done it in a deliberate way, such as would fall to the duties of a surgeon, it would probably have taken me the best part of an hour. The whole inference seems to me that the operation was performed to enable the perpetrator to obtain possession of these parts of the body."

We know that the wounds inflicted on Eddowes probably took less than 10 minutes, Dr Browne I think stated it could have been done in as little as 5 minutes. So even Phillips' shorter time seems somewhat cautious.

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I certainly think that using Cadoche as the benchmark makes a lot of sense, although I don't know quite how precise his time-keeping would have been, given the era we're talking about. Personally, I don't feel that the discrepancy between his and Elizabeth Long's (estimated) timings is too much of an issue.
Cadosch said he noticed the time was 05:32 when he walked past Spitalfields church on his way to work, which is pretty precise. It's about 2-3 minutes walk from his door so he would have left just about when Long said she had her sighting.
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  #126  
Old 04-24-2017, 01:19 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Cadosch said he noticed the time was 05:32 when he walked past Spitalfields church on his way to work, which is pretty precise.
True story: I checked my watch this morning, whilst waiting for the coffee shop to open. I couldn't honestly tell you precisely what time it was but, if pressed, I might say it was 07:15, but I'm not actually recalling a fact, only making an informed guess; it might have been 07:10 or 07:25. My only reason for checking the time was to gauge roughly how long I'd have to wait for my caffeine shot; I had no reason to register the time with any accuracy.

In similar vein, Cadoche presumably needed to check if he was roughly on track for work, but that would scarcely have warranted his registering such a specific time, still less to have recalled it with such precision when asked about it later. Seen in that light, how much confidence should we have?
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  #127  
Old 04-24-2017, 02:06 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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True story: I checked my watch this morning, whilst waiting for the coffee shop to open. I couldn't honestly tell you precisely what time it was but, if pressed, I might say it was 07:15, but I'm not actually recalling a fact, only making an informed guess; it might have been 07:10 or 07:25. My only reason for checking the time was to gauge roughly how long I'd have to wait for my caffeine shot; I had no reason to register the time with any accuracy.

In similar vein, Cadoche presumably needed to check if he was roughly on track for work, but that would scarcely have warranted his registering such a specific time, still less to have recalled it with such precision when asked about it later. Seen in that light, how much confidence should we have?
so true
I put little stock in witnesses timings in terms of ruling them in or out as valid witnesses, what they saw/heard etc., or whatever people try to use it for these days.

Ive always gone by that as long as nothing else major questions their credibility, then their times, no matter how precise they tried to be, should be taken as approximate, and one cant really try to rule them out, or try to make conclusive statements based on times.
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  #128  
Old 04-26-2017, 05:59 AM
Jon Guy Jon Guy is offline
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I appreciate that long held beliefs are hard to abandon, but again, for the umpteenth time, IF Cadosche was lying, then maybe Mrs Long saw Annie. If not, she didn't. Any evidence he was lying?
They are not my long held beliefs, Michael.
But anyway, how about Mrs Long was mistaken ?

Evans and Rumbelow argue that if Mrs Long left her house just after 5am, as she said, she would have been by 29 Hanbury Street at 5.15.
By 5.30am she would have been well on her way to Romford.
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  #129  
Old 04-26-2017, 06:51 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is online now
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They are not my long held beliefs, Michael.
But anyway, how about Mrs Long was mistaken ?

Evans and Rumbelow argue that if Mrs Long left her house just after 5am, as she said, she would have been by 29 Hanbury Street at 5.15.
By 5.30am she would have been well on her way to Romford.
Romford? I thought she was on her way to Spitalfields Market. She said she reached it "a few minutes after half past five", which chimes with hearing the brewery clock sounding the half-hour as she turned into Hanbury street.
Even if she left home just after five, there's no guarantee she didn't stop off somewhere on the way for an errand, a coffee and/or a natter. Sadly.
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  #130  
Old 04-26-2017, 06:58 AM
Jon Guy Jon Guy is offline
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Romford? I thought she was on her way to Spitalfields Market. She said she reached it "a few minutes after half past five", which chimes with hearing the brewery clock sounding the half-hour as she turned into Hanbury street.
Even if she left home just after five, there's no guarantee she didn't stop off somewhere on the way for an errand, a coffee and/or a natter. Sadly.
I was joking about, Romford, JR.
My point being that in half an hour she could have covered 2 miles, which places her well past Hanbury Street and Spitalfields Market.
If, as she says,she left her house just after 5am, then 5.15 she would be near Hanbury Street (chiming with Cadosche).

As Evans and Rumbelow argue, Mrs Long could be our best witness.
She saw Chapman at close quarters, and in daylight.
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