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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Mary Jane Kelly

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  #1  
Old 11-23-2015, 03:51 PM
Pierre Pierre is offline
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Default Oh, murder!

Hi,

What happened between 1.30 and 3.30/3.45 in Kelly´s room?

Why did Prater hear "Oh, murder!"?

"I left the room on the Thursday at five p.m., and returned to it at about one a.m. on Friday morning. I stood at the corner until about twenty minutes past one. No one spoke to me. McCarthy's shop was open, and I called in, and then went to my room. I should have seen a glimmer of light in going up the stairs if there had been a light in deceased's room, but I noticed none. The partition was so thin I could have heard Kelly walk about in the room. I went to bed at half-past one and barricaded the door with two tables. I fell asleep directly and slept soundly. A kitten disturbed me about half-past three o'clock or a quarter to four. As I was turning round I heard a suppressed cry of "Oh - murder!" in a faint voice. "

Regards Pierre
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  #2  
Old 11-23-2015, 04:49 PM
Rosella Rosella is offline
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^ As I believe Mary Kelly was in slumberland at around 4am, or even earlier, when she became the victim of a sudden attack, IMO it's doubtful that she would have had much of a chance of calling anything out.

I think it's notable that Mrs Prater didn't bother to investigate this cry. As she told the police, 'I frequently hear such cries from the back of the lodging house where the windows look into Millers Court.'
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Old 11-23-2015, 09:03 PM
RockySullivan RockySullivan is offline
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Bowyer is the one whose presence at miller courts put's him closest to the screams of Murder. According to CB Three witnesses heard the MK screaming murder. I think it's unlikely that screaming was not Kelly being murdered. If it quacks like a duck...

Side note: does anyone know what happened to casebook? The Witnesses and suspect pages are wiped of all info, they only have a link to JTR wiki which is also all blank.

Last edited by RockySullivan : 11-23-2015 at 09:13 PM.
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  #4  
Old 11-24-2015, 02:29 AM
Pierre Pierre is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RockySullivan View Post
I think it's unlikely that screaming was not Kelly being murdered. If it quacks like a duck...
Hi Rocky,

well, what makes you think it is unlikely - and what could the alternative(s) be?

Regards Pierre
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  #5  
Old 11-18-2016, 02:32 PM
spyglass spyglass is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
Hi Rocky,

well, what makes you think it is unlikely - and what could the alternative(s) be?

Regards Pierre
Hi Pierre,
A bit late I know, but how about the cry of "oh murder" was in fact Kelly coming home to find a murdered body laying in her room.
It would be enough to make you vomit for a long time, even up to 8/8.30 the following morning.

regards
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Old 11-24-2015, 02:26 AM
Pierre Pierre is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosella View Post
^ As I believe Mary Kelly was in slumberland at around 4am, or even earlier, when she became the victim of a sudden attack, IMO it's doubtful that she would have had much of a chance of calling anything out. '
Hi Rosella,

and if she didn´t - where could "Oh, murder!" have come from?

And how about the time of the murder of Kelly if we consider the following:

"Dr. Bond concluded that: "1 or 2 in the morning would be the probable time of the murder"

The Metropolitan Police detectives investigating the crime did not altogether go along with their expert on this, favouring between 3.30 & 4.00 a.m., the time-span during which two of Kelly's neighbours heard a cry of "murder". But un-remarked, both at the time, and since, was Dr. Phillips' assessment of 5.00 to 6.00 a.m., a difference of three to five hours with Dr. Bond."

http://www.casebook.org/dissertation...?printer=true)

In the light of the cry of "Oh, murder!" at 3.30/3.45 not coming from Kelly: Which one is more likely to be right, Bond or Phillips?

Regards Pierre

Last edited by Pierre : 11-24-2015 at 02:32 AM.
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  #7  
Old 11-23-2015, 09:32 PM
Robert St Devil Robert St Devil is offline
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Hello Pierre.

No light means that Mary could have left the room, lending corroboration with Hutchins. claims. {maybe the man with the pot of ale only buys an hour with her, dunno}. It also could mean the fire in the place hasnt been lit yet.
The partially digested fish and potatoes indicates she ate within 30 mins. to an hour of her death (3a to 330a?). If she is begging off of Hutch, how and where does she get fish & potatos?
The "oh murder!" could be similar to Elizabeth Strides cries for help.

Was Elizabeth Prater waiting for Jack the Ripper at 1:20a?
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Old 11-24-2015, 02:22 AM
Pierre Pierre is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert St Devil View Post
Hello Pierre.

The "oh murder!" could be similar to Elizabeth Strides cries for help.
Hi Robert,

Do you think this is the only possible explanation for the "Oh, murder!"?

Regards Pierre

Last edited by Pierre : 11-24-2015 at 02:28 AM.
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  #9  
Old 11-24-2015, 11:47 AM
Robert St Devil Robert St Devil is offline
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PIERRE.

GAROTT. The ecchymosis on her neck is an indication of strangulation with a ligature (red handkerchief?). That type of briising would not have shown up after her death. The fact that the cut was made across the ecchy-bruising supports another poster's (wickerman?) assertion that the killer cut across the ligature furrow. I believe she was garotted which fits Jack the Rippers MO.

FISH AND CHIPS. I dont know how much this would have cost. I know much wasmade of MAry's desperate situation, mentioned that she wouldnt have gone out if she wasnt starving. Fish and potatoes have a digestion time of one hour. So partially digested f&p means she ate within an bour of her death. McCqrhtys chandler shop, maybe?

POSSIBILITIES. I want to move away from possibilities and towards probabilities. However i cant deny that they 'pop up'. Ive considered the following alternatives: 1) somebody walked in and found the body, and left without reporting it ("oh murder!")., or 2) this was part of the killers MO. It was a way of alerting attention to the murder or timestamping it, like the Tabram murder. There is some mention that the killer may have had a different sounding voice. So... this could have been said by the killer as he was leaving.
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  #10  
Old 11-24-2015, 12:11 PM
richardnunweek richardnunweek is offline
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I have always had the opinion that the cry heard was Kelly crying out ''Oh Murder'', not because of being actually attacked, but awakening suddenly from a nightmare.
Mrs Prater remarked at the inquest,,''Like awakening from a nightmare'', when asked to describe the cry she heard..
And Lottie around 3 years after, told Kit Watkins a Canadian reporter,that the Kelly woman had told her, that sometime in October she had a nightmare that someone was murdering her.
As the cry ''Oh murder '' was uttered,,the wording could suggest, that she had a recurrence of that dream...
I do not believe Mary was killed until daylight.
Regards Richard.
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