At Rural South Carolina Shop, Confederate Flags Fly Off Shelves

[Pcdunn]

Mayerling, thank you for your very interesting post. I'm a native of California, and haven't been further east than Indiania, so your information about the names of the New York City boroughs was fascinating.
It is very common for victors to rename places they've taken from others; it's surprising we've retained as many Native American names as we have.

Your points about slavery being accepted in the days of the colonists, from several European countries, are true. Certainly the Spanish enslaved Indians as well as blacks, in their large regions to the west.

There is a new documentary series on the Civil War which focuses on the enormous cost in lives lost and damaged on both sides of the conflict. Some of my ancestors fought on both sides, and I am sorry for all of them. It was terribly divisive to this country, and I sincerely hope it never happens again.

[Rosemary]

Both sides

The minute you mention the possibility of banning something it becomes popular I think to ban this flag would be wrong people should be allowed to make their own choices however I can see why this flag could upset people.I've been interested in the civil war all my life I've read countless books watched countless films and dvds my favourite been Ken burns excellent documentary and when I play the what if game and consider what might have happened if the south had won the civil war I cringe.

As a descendant of slave owners & of slaves, I have both heart, mind & soul in me. As an historian, I say don't do presentism. But that will never happen. I fly no flag. I am Confederate & Garifuna. Which one do I fly? By % of DNA?!

[Rosemary]

Honor

I live in Charleston and suffice to say things have been extremely painful and emotional since the shootings. I'd like to take a moment to remember the victims of this tragedy and highlight the inspiring community response of love.

Deep issues of race, however, remain.

With respect to this thread, I can say that the goal is not to "ban" the flag, but simply remove it from public places, such as the state house. If companies wish to stop selling the flag (e.g., Wal-Mart, Amazon) in my opinion that is great but the government should not force them to do so. Also, the "flags are flying off shelves" phenomenon is not simply due to the fact of a perceived ban. There are many people in this state and elsewhere with deeply held convictions who - at best - view it as part of their heritage and/or - at worst - are overtly racist.

Interestingly, the state park/museum/fort at Fort Sumter has lowered the confederate flag. I have way less of an issue of the confederate flag flying at Civil War memorials than at the capitol building. I was actually surprised that this was done.

I am quickly becoming educated on this topic and did not know the combo of (a) a third of SC men of fighting age died during the Civil War and (b) there was a draft. I do not think it is inappropriate or contradictory to honor the valor of the soldiers even while detesting slavery. The question is how best to do so.

There is a plaque on my great-grandfather's grave honoring his service in the Confederacy. There is a plaque on my great-g-g-grandfather's grave honoring his service in the War of 1812. There's a plaque on my great-g-g-g-grandfather's grave honoring his service in the Revolutionary War. My great great grandmother was part British, Mayan & Garifuna African. Some of her ancestors were slaves.And we are in the process of applying for a tombstone for my husband's great-great-grandfather, who fought for the U.S. Colored Troops during the American Civil War. I think that's how best to do so, malice towards none. But I'm sure there are those who would disagree.

[GUT]

As a descendant of slave owners & of slaves, I have both heart, mind & soul in me. As an historian, I say don't do presentism. But that will never happen. I fly no flag. I am Confederate & Garifuna. Which one do I fly? By % of DNA?!

I too am descended of slave owners and slave traders, fortunately I live in a country where slavery was never an issue, (however there was advantage taken off Islanders and Natives as low wage labour).

Whilst I don't agree with slavery, let alone trading in slaves, I realise that these ancestors lived in a different time with different standards and try not to judge their behaviour.

[GUT]

I may add that suspect that in years to come historians may judge our actions today in a similar light to how we look back on slavery of the 1800s.

[Rosemary]

Presentism

I may add that suspect that in years to come historians may judge our actions today in a similar light to how we look back on slavery of the 1800s.

It's the difficulty of historians to not judge by present values/principals what has been past. Otherwise we begin to sound like an ethno-historical interpretation of Hiesenberg's Uncertainty Prnciple applied to social sciences.

[GUT]

It's the difficulty of historians to not judge by present values/principals what has been past. Otherwise we begin to sound like an ethno-historical interpretation of Hiesenberg's Uncertainty Prnciple applied to social sciences.

True.

[GUT]

It's the difficulty of historians to not judge by present values/principals what has been past. Otherwise we begin to sound like an ethno-historical interpretation of Hiesenberg's Uncertainty Prnciple applied to social sciences.

I also suspect Historians may have been a bad choice of words, perhaps should have said those looking back on time.

[Steadmund Brand]

But remember the victor writes the history if the South had won they would be the heros and the North the villains.

One problem we have in America is many in the South feel this way anyway...a good friend of mine moved to the south to teach, and in some of the text books in his district refer to the civil war as " the War of Northern Aggression" and that’s what these kids are taught.....I have another example of something that happened to him in that district ( he has since left it) that is mind blowing... but I should ask his permission before I post that story....

in many ways we are way to divided a nation.. fuelled by hate and mistrust...and some of it, not all by any means, does stem from that flag... do i think it should be banned.. no, wear it on your shirt, fly it at your home if you like.. but I defiantly believe IT SHOULD BE REMOVED from ANY government building...much in the same way I feel anything of a religious nature should be as well.....not banned...but not representative of the government....

that's just one Yanks opinion though


Steadmund Brand

[pinkmoon]

The people who mourn the "lost cause" need to take a step back and seriously think what would have happened if the south had won the civil war it's quite a scary prospect when you think hard about it .

[Robert]

If that was a civil war then I'd hate to see the Americans when they're not being civil.

[Mayerling]

If that was a civil war then I'd hate to see the Americans when they're not being civil.

Hi Robert,

Every major country and many less than major ones had civil wars (some several). Cromwell's wars were Civil Wars (initially) against the Cavaliers. The French had the "Fronde" in the 17th Century, and in the 18th Century there were wars between Frenchmen during the Revolution (such as that one described by Balzac in "The Chouans"). China had one in the 1850s to 1860s (the one that "Chinese" Gordon distinguished himself in) known as the "Taiping Revolt" that cost over ten million lives (which is more than the contemporary American Civil War). None of them can really be considered "civil".

As for the flag matter, I wondered about another flag - Texas uses "the Lone Star" which was originally it's flag as a republic. I guess it is not in the same category as the "Stars and Bars" because there was more universal support for the Texas cause. Even local Mexicans like Juan Seguin supported the fight for independence. Still, Texas did have slavery.

By the way, one of the best sounding state songs is "Maryland, My Maryland" which has the same melody as "Oh Tannenbaum!" Yet the Maryland song is about how the citizens of Baltimore tried to prevent a Massachusetts regiment from changing trains in their city to go to Washington in April 1861. As a result of this riot many townspeople and soldiers were killed. As far as I know it is the only state song that is about an act of defiance directed against the central Federal government. But the song also is celebrating the heroism of pro-Confederate southerners. Interesting problem there.

Jeff

[GUT]

G'day Jeff

Not every major Country.

We avoided it. And what could be more important than Aus.

[Robert]

Hi Jeff

I guess if there's going to be a reaction against all things Confederate, then this song will have to be taken off the radio playlists. Joan Baez, of all people, sings it :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Night_They_Drove_Old_Dixie_Down

[GUT]

Hi Jeff

I guess if there's going to be a reaction against all things Confederate, then this song will have to be taken off the radio playlists. Joan Baez, of all people, sings it :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ni...Old_Dixie_Down

And a beautiful song it be.