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Republicans Talking About Impeaching Clinton Should She Win

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  • #16
    Slightly longer answer than planned.

    Originally posted by Robert View Post
    Hi Jeff

    Ah, right, so it's only operative while the President is in office.

    Do you know if any President has been convicted of criminal charges in connection with his Presidency, after leaving office? What happened to Belknap?
    Hi Robert,

    Post Presidential tragedy occurs. John Quincy Adams' son George Washington Adams committed suicide (he was going insane) on a steamer at sea in 1830, after Quincy Adams' Presidency ended. Grant got involved with a Wall Street stock wheeler dealer named Ferdinand Ward, who turned out to be a crook, and Grant was penniless while he was dying (he did manage to write his famous war memoirs, which re-established his family's financial stability, just before he died). But none have ever been prosecuted after leaving office for anything. In fact, I believe that Grant may have gotten a ticket (while President) for "speeding" in his horse and buggy, and Pierce (who had a really serious drinking problem) may have ran down a woman pedestrian in his carriage (I'm not sure if these two incidents are separate under two Presidents or happened to only one). But those incidents were accidental incidents and did not end up as charges before Congress.

    William Belknap had been one of the Generals under William Sherman in the campaigns in Georgia (that led to the fall of Atlanta and the "march to the sea" to Savannah, in 1864) and in the two Carolinas (where Sherman received the surrender of CSA General Joseph Johnston's army on April 26, 1865). There was a degree of "old boy's" networking in the Grant administration: he had been General-in-Chief of the U.S. Army up to 1869, and when he became President Sherman became General-in-Chief. Sherman recommended Belknap for the Secretary of War post.

    To be fair to Belknap, he held the post for most of Grant's two terms (if you studied the length of time anyone held a post in Grant's administrations, the average was usually a couple of months). Until the scandal of 1876 broke, Belknap was considered doing an okay job. What happened was his first wife died, and he met a younger, more vivacious woman whom he married. She like to be a social lioness, and a fashionable one. This required more cash than Belknap's salary. As he was not a rich man he fell into HER suggestion about the Indian Reservation trading posts.

    The scandal actually really caused some problems in the Dakotas, where the Sioux were not especially happy with the inflated products for third rate products foisted on them by the men who bribed Belknap for the trading post rights. This, coupled with the discovery of the gold in the Lakota Sioux "Black Hills" region (supposedly protected by agreement with the Federal Government "by treaty") was to lead to the Sioux organizing the largest Indian tribe war against the U.S. on the plains (and led, of course, to the Custer massacre at Little Big Horn in June 1876).

    Ironically Custer was the man who discovered about the bribery, and revealed it. He was the doghouse with his Commander-in-Chief Sherman for being a snitch and hurting Sherman's friend Belknap. Grant, who considered General Sherman HIS closest friend, likewise disliked Custer as a result. Custer was being hung to dry by these two, and only saved by Custer's protector and friend, General Phil Sheridan. Sheridan would convince Grant and a reluctant Sherman to send Custer back to stop Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse when they went on the warpath.

    Belknap, after the resignation (and the resulting dual problems of the "impeachment-post-resignation" question I previously mentioned, and the Custer disaster) returned to being an attorney in Washington, D.C. He died in 1890.

    Interestingly since Belknap (except for President Bill Clinton) no Federal Executive Branch figure has faced impeachment and removal (some Federal Judges have done so, and been removed). The first serious Federal level impeachment trial (which should have tipped us all to the difficulties of this method) was in an earlier period under Thomas Jefferson. Jefferson and his Democrat-Republicans (yeah they once were a single party!) had trounced the Federalists in the elections of 1800, and he undid certain unpopular Federalist laws (the "Alien and Sedition Acts"). However his old friend, recent political rival and enemy, and future mutually-forgiven friend, John Adams had pulled a last minute fast one on Tom. He appointed his Secretary of State, John Marshall, Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court. Beginning in 1801 with "Marbury v. Madison" for the next thirty four years a stream of legal decisions that emphasized the strong centralization of government theory of the Federalist Party (and were hated by Jefferson and his followers) flowed out of the U.S. Supreme Court.

    Jefferson should have expected this. He and Marshall were actually cousins, and both detested each other. Looking to be rid of this troublesome Chief Justice as quickly as possible, Jefferson latched onto the "impeachment' and removal section of the Federal Constitution. In 1803 he directed his attention to a notoriously partisan lower court Federal Judge in New England, John Pickering. He succeeded in removing Pickering (the first time the Federal Government succeeded in using impeachment and removal), but failed to notice even the Federalists were not bothered by this...Pickering being at least senile, at worst insane. So he was no great loss. Jefferson then decided to go for bigger game. Associate Justice Samuel Chase of the U.S. Supreme Court was partisan, but actually was an able judge. Jefferson put the impeachment process in the hands of his other cousin, John Randolph of Roanoke (in Virginia - Randolph is usually referred to with "of Roanoke" after his name). Big mistake there - Randolph was an interesting character, but he was a character and almost as unstable in his way as Pickering was. Randolph got the impeachment of Chase through the House, and was helping to steer it through the Senate. Jefferson's intentions were clear, especially to Marshall. If Chase fell after Pickering, Marshall would be next!

    Problem was Thomas Jefferson had another enemy - one who only a few months before demonstrated how deadly an enemy he could be to Jefferson's third enemy, Alexander Hamilton. Vice President Aaron Burr had not been close to the Jefferson Administration (1801 to 1805) due to his blanket attempt (that nearly succeeded) in stealing the election of 1800 from Jefferson under his nose by a critical flaw in the election laws about the electoral college. One of the reasons Burr was in a collision course with Hamilton from 1803 onward was that he was not given patronage in New York State by Jefferson's administration, so that Burr decided to try his luck and run for governor (which eventually led to the events headed for that duel). Burr was also replaced by his other New York State rival, Governor George Clinton, as Jefferson's now formal running mate (thanks to the 11th Amendment to the Constitution, forced by the 1800 mess) for Vice President. Isolated and bitter, just before the Chase removal trial began in the U.S. Senate, Burr found that Jefferson was making overtures to him!

    Burr wasn't surprised. As Vice President (even though he was a lame duck one) he was in charge of the Senate trial of Chase. Jefferson invited Burr over for dinner at the White House, and suggested that in the second Jefferson administration Burr might still find some foreign ambassadorial post available (England or France, presumably). Only thing would be the handling of the trial. Burr remained non-committal. As he was watching Burr leave the White House after that dinner, Jefferson may have felt the ghostly presence of his old foe Hamilton smiling and saying that Burr could kill opponents without guns too!

    To his credit, Burr did not do anything wrong - in fact because he was in charge of the Chase trial he actually set precedent for future impeachment trials (his formality and regard for procedure was copied by Chief Justice Salmon P. Chase at the 1868 Senate trial of Andrew Johnson, and by Chief Justice William Rehnquist at the 1999 Senate trial of Bill Clinton*). But because he followed legal procedures (Burr was a brilliant lawyer) he easily outscored Randolph's mishandling of the Chase prosecution. The end result was a hideous failure for Jefferson: Chase was acquitted. Chase remained on the U.S. Supreme Court until his death in 1811. This of course ended the threat to John Marshall. Jefferson shifted the blame on his hitherto close relative and supporter Randolph. Big mistake there. Randolph may have been "eccentric" but he was a devastating critic and foe. From then on Jefferson was constantly attacked on policies by Randolph.

    There would be a second set-back for Jefferson soon. Historians generally say the first term of Jefferson was his best, culminating in the Louisiana Purchase. But his second term was far less successful, in part due to his idiotic attempt to bring Britain and France to their senses concerning U.S. trading rights by his Embargo Act of 1807 (which hurt our economy more), but also his failure to even the score with Burr. Burr had been engaged in probably treasonable activities in the west, and Jefferson had him arrested for treason in 1806. The trial was held in Richmond, Virginia - but that meant that the U.S. Supreme Court Justice who would preside would be the one who was assigned to riding the Federal circuit (which they did back then) inside Virginia. As you can guess it, that was the First Federal Circuit - and it was presided over by Chief Justice John Marshall! Burr probably was smiling as he watched Marshall make mincemeat out of Jefferson's treason charges and evidence just by using proper procedure. Burr was acquitted now too. One is tempted to say "Payment in full, with complete satisfaction of parties".

    [In the Chase Case, as he was a member of the U.S. Supreme Court, Chase's trial could not be headed by his associate, Chief Justice Marshall. Instead it was in the hands of the head of the Senate - Vice President Burr. That was not the situation in 1868 or 1999, so the Chief Justices handled the trial in the Senate.]

    Jeff
    Last edited by Mayerling; 11-04-2016, 03:21 PM.

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    • #17
      Thanks for that, Jeff.

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      • #18
        Slightly off topic I guess but....

        Is there any other candidate.

        I recall a few years back that Ross Perot (sp) ran as an independent, any next week?
        G U T

        There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

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        • #19
          Hi, GUT. In addition to Gary Johnson (Libertarian party) and a woman running for the Green Party, there are numerous other candidates, at least on our ballot here in Colorado. I think rules vary from state to state as to how a person may announce for and get named on a presidential ballot. Apparently here it is fairly easy.

          Johnson has generally rated at about 7% in the polls, and did not earn enough to rate a place in the debates.
          Pat D. https://forum.casebook.org/core/imag...rt/reading.gif
          ---------------
          Von Konigswald: Jack the Ripper plays shuffleboard. -- Happy Birthday, Wanda June by Kurt Vonnegut, c.1970.
          ---------------

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Pcdunn View Post
            Hi, GUT. In addition to Gary Johnson (Libertarian party) and a woman running for the Green Party, there are numerous other candidates, at least on our ballot here in Colorado. I think rules vary from state to state as to how a person may announce for and get named on a presidential ballot. Apparently here it is fairly easy.

            Johnson has generally rated at about 7% in the polls, and did not earn enough to rate a place in the debates.
            Thanks Pat.

            Have heard nothing about them here this year.
            G U T

            There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

            Comment


            • #21
              They're both definitely minority candidates from underdog parties.

              Trump was hustled off stage at a rally by his Secret Service agents when a shout of "gun!" was heard, but apparently it was a false alarm.

              Clinton was very raspy-voiced at her rally, but trying to sound a bit more optimistic than usual.

              And in the U.K., a giant effigy of Trump holding Hilary's head was burned as part of a Guy Fawkes celebration. Well done, you lot!
              Pat D. https://forum.casebook.org/core/imag...rt/reading.gif
              ---------------
              Von Konigswald: Jack the Ripper plays shuffleboard. -- Happy Birthday, Wanda June by Kurt Vonnegut, c.1970.
              ---------------

              Comment


              • #22
                Just on the news here about the "Gun" incident.

                Any more details known, all we saw was him being hustled off stage
                G U T

                There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by GUT View Post
                  Just on the news here about the "Gun" incident.

                  Any more details known, all we saw was him being hustled off stage
                  All I've read is that a shout of "Gun!" came from the crowd, and several agents leapt into action, covering Trump and pulling him from behind his podium to the backstage area. A search was made, but no gun was found. Maybe just a prank to interrupt proceedings?
                  Trump went back later and complimented his Secret Service agents as "great", which was the least he could do, I suppose.
                  Pat D. https://forum.casebook.org/core/imag...rt/reading.gif
                  ---------------
                  Von Konigswald: Jack the Ripper plays shuffleboard. -- Happy Birthday, Wanda June by Kurt Vonnegut, c.1970.
                  ---------------

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    This news may put an end to talk of impeachment-- or it may not-- but the FBI found nothing new in the emails on Clinton's aide's ex-husband's laptop and stands by its recommendation not to charge Ms. Clinton criminally.



                    Apparently the e-mails were either personal, or duplicates that had already been reviewed. Trump is reacting by falling back on his "It's all rigged" viewpoint.

                    One more day... (To quote "Les Miz")
                    Pat D. https://forum.casebook.org/core/imag...rt/reading.gif
                    ---------------
                    Von Konigswald: Jack the Ripper plays shuffleboard. -- Happy Birthday, Wanda June by Kurt Vonnegut, c.1970.
                    ---------------

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      One more day, and then what? I have a feeling that the election won't be over on Nov 9th. Just like the the political fallout from the UK referendum then started to overshadow the actual result in the immediate aftermath.

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                      • #26
                        Funny thing the other side are now saying similar things about Don.
                        G U T

                        There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

                        Comment

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