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  • The technique of removal of the heart by severing the major blood vessels by piercing the pericardium, ad Bond describes, is the Virchow technique. The pericardium..according to Bond, was still in situe.
    This technique was relatively new in 1888.
    Bond states that the pericardium was incised..And therefore in place.
    If this methodology was used..And it seems to follow the avenue of Virchow, then the murderer or whoever removed the heart was a skilled man.

    I thank Steve Jessup for this information, who..as far as I am aware, was the first to state it publically.

    Rudolph Carl Virchow was born in 1821, in Germany.



    Phil
    Last edited by Phil Carter; 12-22-2015, 09:22 AM.
    Chelsea FC. TRUE BLUE. 💙


    Justice for the 96 = achieved
    Accountability? ....

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Phil Carter View Post
      I will mention in passing that the "surgical methodology" of removal of the heart from below the ribs, leaving other items close to or surrounding the heart intact, was a very fresh idea...in surgical terms.

      Now..at least until that time. .as far as I am aware, but could be mistaken, no murder committed on a human had this procedure been used.

      One can..If that be the case, perhaps include this limited knowledge whilst weighing up the pros and cons of anatomical knowledge.

      This method of removal of the heart has a name..and I believe was from the 1870's. The name escapes me at the moment but I THINK it was a German surgeon who came up with the idea. I believe. .but could be wrong..that Bond studied under this man. Please make allowances for a faulty memory.

      I will try and ferret out the reference.



      Phil
      Richard Patterson has argued that Kelly's heart was removed using the Virchow method, the removal of the heart via the pericardium. He also points out that his suspect, Francis Thompson, had been taught this new and rare method.

      However, overall it does seem that Kelly's murderer exhibited very little skill, as was clearly the opinion of both Dr Bond and Dr Phillips.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by John G View Post
        Richard Patterson has argued that Kelly's heart was removed using the Virchow method, the removal of the heart via the pericardium. He also points out that his suspect, Francis Thompson, had been taught this new and rare method.

        However, overall it does seem that Kelly's murderer exhibited very little skill, as was clearly the opinion of both Dr Bond and Dr Phillips.
        Hello Jon,

        Merry Xmas to you.

        Richard got this information from Steve Jessup who researched it and put it out on a face book page first.
        (See edited post..above)

        Whether his suspect trained under Virchow I cannot say. .but ignoring that fact, and taking into account the debris otherwise made of the body of the poor woman, this method of heart removal DOES require surgical skill..and most certainly surgical knowledge.

        The intracardiac surgery required is a very subtle one. It goes against the rest of the cuts etc on the body..I willingly concede.


        Phil
        Last edited by Phil Carter; 12-22-2015, 09:33 AM.
        Chelsea FC. TRUE BLUE. 💙


        Justice for the 96 = achieved
        Accountability? ....

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Phil Carter View Post
          Whether his suspect trained under Virchow I cannot say... this method of heart removal DOES require surgical skill..and most certainly surgical knowledge.
          No doubt many of us will encounter the dreaded "blister-packs" surrounding our gifts this Christmas, and will improvise various methods to get the toys out. This neither presupposes any special technique (let's call it the "Blistov" method) for removing blister-packs nor, in fact, any advance knowledge that a given toy will be encased in a plastic shell. We'll all succeed in breaking in, nevertheless - even if it means we make an almighty mess out of the rest of the packaging in the process
          Kind regards, Sam Flynn

          "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Phil Carter View Post
            Hello Jon,

            Merry Xmas to you.

            Richard got this information from Steve Jessup who researched it and put it out on a face book page first.
            (See edited post..above)

            Whether his suspect trained under Virchow I cannot say. .but ignoring that fact, and taking into account the debris otherwise made of the body of the poor woman, this method of heart removal DOES require surgical skill..and most certainly surgical knowledge.

            The intracardiac surgery required is a very subtle one. It goes against the rest of the cuts etc on the body..I willingly concede.


            Phil
            Hello Phil,

            Merry Christmas to you too. Thanks for the information, that's very useful. I wonder if Dr Bond, who of course believed that the killer didn't even posses the technical knowledge of a butcher or horse slaughterer, was conversant with the Virchow method.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by John G View Post
              I wonder if Dr Bond, who of course believed that the killer didn't even posses the technical knowledge of a butcher or horse slaughterer, was conversant with the Virchow method.
              In case he wasn't, here's a textbook entry that might have helped him:
              The Complete Examination (Virchow Technique)

              [The] internal examination begins with a Y-shaped incision to the chest. This extends from the upper left chest region near the shoulder and angles downward toward the tip of the sternum. A similar incision is made on the right side. These two incisions intersect at the xyphoid [sic.] process located at the end of the sternum. From there, the incision extends downwards in the midline of the body to the pelvic region (symphysis pubis), curving slightly [my emphasis] around the umbilicus... These three folds of skin and subcutaneous adipose tissue are dissected from the underlying musculoskeletal structure, exposing the chest plate and the internal abdominal organs... Rib cutters are used to free and remove the ribs and sternum [my emphasis] to expose the heart, lungs, liver and stomach. The internal organs are usually examined in the following order: heart, lungs, liver, pancreas, spleen, kidneys...

              Heart

              The first internal organ examined is the heart, which is located beneath the chest plate (sternum) and enclosed by a thin membrane called the pericardium… The pericardial space is examined by making a small incision into the pericardium to determine the amount of fluid within the space. Then the pericardium is opened, exposing the heart… The heart is examined in situ [and is] then removed by cutting the aorta, superior and inferior vena cava, and pulmonary arteries and veins, then weighed.

              (From Steven A. Koehler & Peggy A. Brown, Forensic Epidemiology, 2009, p43)
              There's nothing there about removing the heart, chimney-sweep style, by burrowing through the diaphragm via the abdomen. On the contrary, the thoracic organs (heart and lungs) are exposed by removing the ribs and sternum, and the heart detached from its matrix of major veins and arteries, after the pericardium is cut... presumably from "in front", rather than from below. This is because the Virchow method, as described, gives access to the organs of the chest by first removing the front of the ribcage. Makes sense, really. The alternative would be like trying to replace a spark-plug by reaching into the engine through the glove compartment.

              (Interesting, also, that this description of the Virchow technique mentions the abdominal incision curving slightly around the umbilicus... so not the rather pronounced "tongue of skin" seen in the Eddowes murder, then?)
              Last edited by Sam Flynn; 12-22-2015, 10:24 AM.
              Kind regards, Sam Flynn

              "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                In case he wasn't, here's a textbook entry that might have helped him:
                The Complete Examination (Virchow Technique)

                [The] internal examination begins with a Y-shaped incision to the chest. This extends from the upper left chest region near the shoulder and angles downward toward the tip of the sternum. A similar incision is made on the right side. These two incisions intersect at the xyphoid [sic.] process located at the end of the sternum. From there, the incision extends downwards in the midline of the body to the pelvic region (symphysis pubis), curving slightly [my emphasis] around the umbilicus... These three folds of skin and subcutaneous adipose tissue are dissected from the underlying musculoskeletal structure, exposing the chest plate and the internal abdominal organs... Rib cutters are used to free and remove the ribs and sternum [my emphasis] to expose the heart, lungs, liver and stomach. The internal organs are usually examined in the following order: heart, lungs, liver, pancreas, spleen, kidneys...

                Heart

                The first internal organ examined is the heart, which is located beneath the chest plate (sternum) and enclosed by a thin membrane called the pericardium… The pericardial space is examined by making a small incision into the pericardium to determine the amount of fluid within the space. Then the pericardium is opened, exposing the heart… The heart is examined in situ [and is] then removed by cutting the aorta, superior and inferior vena cava, and pulmonary arteries and veins, then weighed.

                (From Steven A. Koehler & Peggy A. Brown, Forensic Epidemiology, 2009, p43)
                There's nothing there about removing the heart, chimney-sweep style, by burrowing through the diaphragm via the abdomen. On the contrary, the thoracic organs (heart and lungs) are exposed by removing the ribs and sternum, and the heart detached from its matrix of major veins and arteries, after the pericardium is cut... presumably from "in front", rather than from below. This is because the Virchow method, as described, gives access to the organs of the chest by first removing the front of the ribcage. Makes sense, really. The alternative would be like trying to replace a spark-plug by reaching into the engine through the glove compartment.

                (Interesting, also, that this description of the Virchow technique mentions the abdominal incision curving slightly around the umbilicus... so not the rather pronounced "tongue of skin" seen in the Eddowes murder, then?)
                Hi Sam,

                Thanks for this. Based upon this definition, it looks as though the Virchow method was possibly not used to remove the heart. Moreover, it would seem strange that the perpetrator would use a sophisticated technique for removing the heart when some of Kelly's other organs may well have been simply plucked out.

                Comment


                • Interesting info, Gareth, for which many thanks.

                  With reference to Elmore's recent post and the much-discussed lower cut to Chapman's pelvic organs, it occurs to me that the rationale used to exclude a "slash and grab artist" from consideration - on the grounds that an unskilled "operator" wouldn't (?) have cut so far down the vaginal "vault" - doesn't really hold water, at least not as far as I've been able to ascertain from a spot of net-sleuthing. Firstly, the lower portion of this "vault" is narrower, making it a more obvious and logical place to cut than higher up near the cervix, where the width is greater; and secondly, the supposedly "obvious place" for a person without to skill to cut (between the uterus and the vagina) was covered in three layers of muscle, and certainly no narrower than the ripper's chosen location for the cut.

                  In summary, it appears that the most "obvious" place for an unskilled killer to make the lower cut just happened the where the actual killer actually made his. This, coupled with the utterly botched and unskillful cut at the top, enabled the killer to remove the uterus.

                  Comment


                  • Referring back to Trevor Marriott's experts, in respect of Chapman, Philip Harrison, a mortuary services manager who assisted Dr Ian Calder, referred to the removal of the pelvic organs, i.e. uterus, parts of the bladder and upper portion of the vagina. He observed, "It is a very difficult and skilled undertaking to remove these organs carefully even by today's methods, especially as the comment is that they were cleanly cut and the cut missed the rectum." (Marriott, 2013).

                    Comment


                    • It is inconceivable to me that Bonds opinion of the skill exhibited is in fact a valid contradiction of a medical expert who actually conducted the examinations firsthand. Reading a summary isn't conducting the exam.

                      In the case of Annie, I believe he was way off. On Mary, I think he was correct...since its the only Canonical he examined.
                      Michael Richards

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by John G View Post
                        [Dr Ian Calder] observed, "It is a very difficult and skilled undertaking to remove these organs carefully even by today's methods, especially as the comment is that they were cleanly cut and the cut missed the rectum." (Marriott, 2013).
                        Indeed, John. Too bad the Ripper only achieved only one (allegedly) clean-cut uterus and failed to avoid damaging the colon in securing it.
                        Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                        "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                          There's no problem, Jon. There are indications of architectural skill in the shack - in the clear sense that certain basic principles of construction must have been adhered to if the shack were to remain standing, which it clearly does.
                          "Indications" of architectural skill?, as opposed to what, millions of sticks erected upright over thousands of years, until something finally stood up by itself?
                          How to distinguish trial & error, or pure luck, from "indications" of architectural skill?

                          I know what you are trying to say, the difference is, "indications" of architectural skill is still the opinion of someone who is not (I assume?), an architect?
                          Whereas, "indications" of anatomical knowledge, came from the voice of experience.
                          Regards, Jon S.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
                            I know what you are trying to say, the difference is, "indications" of architectural skill is still the opinion of someone who is not (I assume?), an architect?
                            Whereas, "indications" of anatomical knowledge, came from the voice of experience.
                            Not at all, Jon. ANYONE could judge whether the builder of that shed knew roughly how to hang a door so that it didn't implode - I mean, even I can tell that, and I'm no builder.

                            Ditto with Kelly. It doesn't take a forensics expert to look at that carnage, or read the objective medical reports (as opposed to subjective medical opinions and/or distorted reportage of same), to conclude that very little surgical experience was required, or evidenced, at Miller's Court.
                            Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                            "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                              (Interesting, also, that this description of the Virchow technique mentions the abdominal incision curving slightly around the umbilicus... so not the rather pronounced "tongue of skin" seen in the Eddowes murder, then?)
                              What slash & grab artist would even avoid the umbilicus, be it precisely or hastily, in order to open the abdomen?

                              It shouldn't even enter their head.
                              Accidental or intentional, and how to distinguish?
                              Regards, Jon S.

                              Comment


                              • Perhaps we're supposed to think Mary's killer had no skill.The way the various pieces are placed implies an orderly demolition rather than a frenzy to me.
                                If Bond had said he thought there was more than one killer or the perp might have had the skill of a butcher and transferred those skills to the victims,it would be hard to argue.But he doesn't.He says he is totally unskilled and that to me is an error.Who is he to dismiss the opinions of Brown and Phillips,so casually?It seems very disrespectful,arrogant even. And why are his estimates of TOD so awry?

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