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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Letters and Communications > Goulston Street Graffito

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  #111  
Old 12-28-2014, 07:09 PM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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I believe there is every possibility that the GSG was written because the author believed that some anarchist Jews were trying to lie their way out of blame on Berner Street that night, and the author was the killer in Mitre Square. The placement, at sometime between Longs first and second pass by that spot, is because one or more Berner Street club Jews lived in the Model Homes.

So in some twisted way, even though Schwartz had yet to make his formal appearance in this saga, his statement.....one that begins with a very sketchy premise and alleged incidents that no-one else saw or heard..... a story that seems pretty clearly intended to place the killer from off the grounds and make him Gentile....might be the validation for that grafitto...because the story may well have been a lie to avoid blame for Liz Strides death....a responsibility they would bear even if the murderer was just a visitor that night, not a club employee. Like 3 of the witnesses were without any corroboration for their stories.

In fact, all of their stories are essentially refuted by the cumulative stories given by Kozebrodski, Heschberg and Spooner, within 1 hour after the killing. Club members, but without any real responsibility or liability here.

Because all 3 of those stories suggest Louis summoned help in the passageway at around 12:40....


Cheers, ...and Happy New Year.
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  #112  
Old 12-28-2014, 07:16 PM
Batman Batman is offline
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Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post

So in some twisted way, even though Schwartz had yet to make his formal appearance in this saga, his statement.....one that begins with a very sketchy premise and alleged incidents that no-one else saw or heard.....

Cheers
Schwartz provided significant details that the autopsy later corroborated such as frontal bruising present and he claimed a frontal assault. Then we have his discription matching Lewede which is the police position on things (do you think Lewede was in on your hypothesis?). Also the way one side of her back was caked in mud way more than the other suggests she was dragged. However if you read Begg he suggests Pipeman was located and cleared by the police. Also Begg suggests it was Schwartz who was taken to the seaside home to identify kozminski, not Lewende.
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  #113  
Old 12-28-2014, 07:31 PM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Schwartz provided significant details that the autopsy later corroborated such as frontal bruising present and he claimed a frontal assault. Then we have his discription matching Lewede which is the police position on things (do you think Lewede was in on your hypothesis?). Also the way one side of her back was caked in mud way more than the other suggests she was dragged. However if you read Begg he suggests Pipeman was located and cleared by the police. Also Begg suggests it was Schwartz who was taken to the seaside home to identify kozminski, not Lewende.
I am aware of the facts you mentioned, but there are guesses in there as well. How she received the bruises cannot be explained by Schwartzs account, the assailant did not interact with her in a way that would cause them according to his story. Read it again. The suspects description does not match the description of Sailor Man, but many think they are close enough to assume so. Her left side, the one she lay on, was caked, there was some additional mud as well on the back of her skirt. There is no evidence at all that suggests she was dragged, in fact a police statement said she looked as if "lain gently down". And her skirt hem had not risen beyond her boot tops.

I have great respect for authors like Mr Begg, and Mr Evans, Mr Sugden and Mr Fido, and quite a few other authors on the topic. But an opinion is still an opinion...a fact is something that can be, and has been, proven. That a witness ID took place at all is a matter of words not facts, and since Israel does not appear at the Inquest, since his statement is not read, or entered as evidence,... since we do not hear that his story is being suppressed like we do with Lawende, since we know Lawende was sequestered at Police expense and we hear none of that about Israel...the evidence suggests Lawende, if anyone, was the Jewish witness.

Again though, assuming something took place because someone said it did isn't using reliable evidence. Its merely choosing to believe,....I prefer when attempting to solve this or any puzzle, to find evidence that compels one to believe.

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  #114  
Old 12-28-2014, 07:42 PM
Batman Batman is offline
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How she received the bruises cannot be explained by Schwartzs account, the assailant did not interact with her in a way that would cause them according to his story. Read it again.
Can you elaborate please? Schwartz described a frontal assault (not rear even though a lot of people even believe today JtR struck from the rear). The autopsy revealed that she did have frontal bruising with the added note that they couldn't rule out they were older. Yet they are still corroborative of Schwartz who couldn't have known the autopsy results this early and they couldn't have known about his witness testimony.

Yes there is speculation a rife, but one also has to then be prepared to apply that same criticism to one's own hypothesis no? I think to be fair its the logical course of action.

A good question I would have is if anyone saw Schwartz about that time. I believe his being there has been corroborated by other witnesses.
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  #115  
Old 12-30-2014, 10:33 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Can you elaborate please? Schwartz described a frontal assault (not rear even though a lot of people even believe today JtR struck from the rear). The autopsy revealed that she did have frontal bruising with the added note that they couldn't rule out they were older. Yet they are still corroborative of Schwartz who couldn't have known the autopsy results this early and they couldn't have known about his witness testimony.

Yes there is speculation a rife, but one also has to then be prepared to apply that same criticism to one's own hypothesis no? I think to be fair its the logical course of action.

A good question I would have is if anyone saw Schwartz about that time. I believe his being there has been corroborated by other witnesses.
Of the different stories concerning exactly what happened to Liz it seems the most believable is the one where she is accosted by someone from behind, who grabs her by the arm or hand and attempts to pull her into the street, she pulls back and falls, he is seen stooping over her, perhaps helping her up. She had the bruising, yes, but it isn't explained by that incident.

The difference between constructive speculation that can help and that which can hurt the investigation is when the accepted known physical characteristics of the scene and the victims condition when found are adhered to.

To re-iterate, no one saw Israel, no-one heard the altercation, no-one saw Eagle or Lave, no one saw or heard Louis arrive.

Without those contentious witnesses we have Liz in the passageway and off the street just after PC Smith leaves,...because a corroborated witness was at her door to the street off and on from 12:30 until 12:50 when she spent the last 10 minutes at her door. She didn't see or hear Louis though he states he was sure he arrived in the passageway at 1am.

Clearly, some witnesses are wrong or lying.

I tend to question the ones that have zero corroboration, and as in Israel's case, start with a questionable premise and end with complete exoneration of anyone on the property at the time. Since he is an immigrant Jew, at an immigrant Jew Socialist club shortly after a large meeting, and since it appears he knew at least Woolf Wess personally, his story seems even less credible, and extremely fortunate for club people like Wess.

Happy New Year.
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  #116  
Old 12-30-2014, 01:04 PM
Hunter Hunter is offline
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Maybe when I have enough time and libations in the next couple of days I'll address some of the misconceptions boosted recently on this thread...
And maybe not.
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When evidence is not to be had, theories abound. Even the most plausible of them do not carry conviction- London Times Nov. 10.1888
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  #117  
Old 12-31-2014, 06:53 AM
Jon Guy Jon Guy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
Point 1:
Graffiti doesn't get rubbed off by people passing does it?, you know this and I know this.
Are you able to negotiate walkways and paths without bumping into or sliding along any walls?
I'm sure you can, so can I, and believe it or not, so do other people..
There would have been a lot of traffic by that doorway, Jon
What about the market stall that would have been set up by the doorway with all the clothes hanging up ? Have you seen the picture of the Goulston Street market, and the type of clothes stall by that door in particular ?


Quote:
Point 2:
Unless you can demonstrate that this example of graffiti was unique then your argument is mute, graffiti could have been quite prevalent in the Jewish sector. East Enders were quite annoyed at Jews for a number of reasons...
They were, but during that Autumn all other issues faded away.

Quote:
We do have photographic samples of graffiti on walls in general in this period so we are not able to claim that this was a special case...
I`ve not seen photographic evidence of small hand written messages, written in lower case.

Quote:
Point 3:
It was never established who "Lipski" was addressed to, or why. Abberline tells us himself that Schwartz was not certain about this....
I thought that due to Schwartz`s strong Jewish appearance Abberline concluded that the Lipski insult was directed at Schwartz ?
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