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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Mary Jane Kelly

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  #11  
Old 11-24-2015, 07:41 AM
Harry D Harry D is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
The cry in all likelihood was the start of the attack.
Hello, Abby.

Nope, that doesn't add up to me. If someone was suddenly attacking you with a knife, you wouldn't cry out 'Oh, murder!', even in Victorian England. You would scream at the top of your lungs or call for help. It seems to have been used as a general exclamation from that time more than anything. That doesn't mean it wasn't Mary Kelly who said it, but I don't believe it preceded the murder. And there's the small matter of Mary Kelly being alive several hours after this, which I happen to subscribe to.
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  #12  
Old 11-24-2015, 08:00 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Originally Posted by Harry D View Post
Hello, Abby.

Nope, that doesn't add up to me. If someone was suddenly attacking you with a knife, you wouldn't cry out 'Oh, murder!', even in Victorian England. You would scream at the top of your lungs or call for help. It seems to have been used as a general exclamation from that time more than anything. That doesn't mean it wasn't Mary Kelly who said it, but I don't believe it preceded the murder. And there's the small matter of Mary Kelly being alive several hours after this, which I happen to subscribe to.
Hi Harry
Thanks for the response. Not sure what anyone would do, let alone what they would yell out if they suddenly found themselves being attacked in the middle of the night especially if its what awakens them.

Anyway, if we have two witness who hear a cry out of murder at about the same time, in the middle of the night coming from a young woman nearby and then a young woman is found the next morning murdered nearby and the doctors TOD tallys with said cry, I would go with said cry and the attack and murder at that time.

but each his own.
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  #13  
Old 11-24-2015, 08:40 AM
Penhalion Penhalion is offline
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But aren't we forgetting that cries of 'murder' were common in the area yet murders were not? It might just be that the two happening close together is one of those odd coincidences. The reason people remember that particular instance of the cry is because a murder was actually discovered. Miller's Court was hardly in an isolated situation. If my memory and pictures are accurate there were several taller buildings around the Court with windows looking out and at least one was a doss house with lots of random people in it. Just because the cry was heard (faintly) by people in the Court does not mean it originated in the Court.
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  #14  
Old 11-24-2015, 08:41 AM
Robert Robert is offline
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There are newspaper examples of people crying "I am being murdered," "I am murdered" and suchlike while being murdered.
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  #15  
Old 11-24-2015, 09:39 AM
RockySullivan RockySullivan is offline
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If the cries did actually came from the court could mary have gone into he court for a reason at 3:30-4 am and been attacked and forced inside there? Unlikely I think the prater could have just claimed the scream came from the court in order to not take blame for hearing her neighbor being murdered, or was too sleepy to tell
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  #16  
Old 11-24-2015, 09:55 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Just because the cry was heard (faintly) by people in the Court does not mean it originated in the Court.
Prater's description of the sound coming from the Court makes perfect sense if - as I'm personally certain - Prater's room overlooked Dorset Street; from that vantage point, any sound emanating from Kelly's room would come from the direction of Miller's Court itself. Most of "Miller's Court" was, don't forget, at the back of number 26/27 Dorset Street.

And, for what it may be worth, the little courtyard at the back of 26/27 Dorset Street was overlooked by Kelly's room, with its broken window; any scream leaking through that broken pane might indeed appear to come "from the Court", even if there were nobody physically in the Court to produce it.
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  #17  
Old 11-24-2015, 10:58 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Prater's description of the sound coming from the Court makes perfect sense if - as I'm personally certain - Prater's room overlooked Dorset Street; from that vantage point, any sound emanating from Kelly's room would come from the direction of Miller's Court itself. Most of "Miller's Court" was, don't forget, at the back of number 26/27 Dorset Street.

And, for what it may be worth, the little courtyard at the back of 26/27 Dorset Street was overlooked by Kelly's room, with its broken window; any scream leaking through that broken pane might indeed appear to come "from the Court", even if there were nobody physically in the Court to produce it.
Hey Sam,

The sound would also sound like it was from the court if it actually came from the court....Sarah Lewis's statement lends credence to that.

Which raises my idea that Mary made the cry while at her open door..that would explain both Prater and Lewis's guess on the location.
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  #18  
Old 11-24-2015, 11:08 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Which raises my idea that Mary made the cry while at her open door..that would explain both Prater and Lewis's guess on the location.
Indeed, Mike. Open door/broken window - either way, the sound is leaking out into "Miller's Court", and would seem to come from the direction of the courtyard.
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  #19  
Old 11-24-2015, 11:12 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Indeed, Mike. Open door/broken window - either way, the sound is leaking out into "Miller's Court", and would seem to come from the direction of the courtyard.
The reason I put less credence on the broken pane as the conduit that lets the voice escape Sam is because of the pilot coat, and the muslin curtains. There were items over that hole, (the hole near the bottom right as you look at it from the alcove), and might well muffle sounds from inside. Sarah seemed to indicate that the voice was clear enough, and also close.
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  #20  
Old 11-24-2015, 11:42 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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The reason I put less credence on the broken pane as the conduit that lets the voice escape Sam is because of the pilot coat, and the muslin curtains.
True enough, Mike - although, even with the coat there, I doubt that those windows were the most soundproof in the world. Or the door, for that matter, irrespective of whether it were open or shut.
Quote:
Sarah seemed to indicate that the voice was clear enough, and also close.
Quite so, but Sarah was only a handful of metres away, as the insomniac crow flies, and I doubt that her windows were much more soundproofed than Kelly's.
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