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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Mary Jane Kelly

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  #101  
Old 11-26-2015, 07:51 PM
GUT GUT is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Dew also said that army pensioner Tom Bowyer was a "youth" (among other howlers), so I'd treat his recollections with caution. Personally, I feel that Dew "puffed up" his involvement in the Ripper case.
I've often wondered If Dew picked that up from a newspaper report (perhaps from his scrapbook) when compiling his memories, but either way it shows he didn't know Tom too well.
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  #102  
Old 11-26-2015, 11:24 PM
RockySullivan RockySullivan is offline
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I've often wondered If Dew picked that up from a newspaper report (perhaps from his scrapbook) when compiling his memories, but either way it shows he didn't know Tom too well.
Has Bowyer ever been identified in any records? Do they know his correct age for sure even?
Edit: Sorry I took a look over at the bowyer thread

Last edited by RockySullivan : 11-26-2015 at 11:30 PM.
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  #103  
Old 11-27-2015, 04:35 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Has Bowyer ever been identified in any records? Do they know his correct age for sure even?
Not sure about his precise age, but he was evidently not a "youth" by any stretch of the imagination. All the newspaper illustrations of Bowyer seem to depict a man well into his thirties or even forties, unreliable as such drawings sometimes are. That said, there's a sketch of him in the Penny Illustrated Newspaper, so well-observed that it may well have been drawn from life. To me, it shows a man in his mid/late forties at least:



(Penny Illustrated Newspaper, 17th Nov 1888)
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  #104  
Old 08-19-2016, 07:07 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is online now
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Daily News 13th Nov 1888;

"Perhaps the most sensational bit of evidence tendered was that of a garrulous young woman who, with some dramatic force, imitated by voice and action a sort of nightmare cry of "Oh! murder!" which she declared she had heard just after she had been woke up by her kitten rubbing its nose against her face about half-past three or four o'clock on the morning of the murder. It was a faintish cry, she said, as though somebody had woke up with the nightmare, and though the evidence must be taken with the reserve that should attach to all such testimony, the time at which she believes she heard the cry would tally very well with all the circumstances of the case, and it is not impossible that that really was the death gasp of the poor woman in the clutches of her murderer."


Elizabeth Prater's evidence, Echo 12th Nov 1888;

"What was the next thing? - A black kitten, of which I am very fond, came to my bed, and rubbed itself against my face.

It disturbed you? - Yes, it tried to get into the bed, and awoke me. That must have been about half-past four, as I heard the clock chiming. I pushed the kitten away.

Yes? - And, just as I pushed the kitten away I heard, "Oh! Murder!" It was as if it was a nightmare. It was just "Oh! Oh! (in a faint, gasping way) - Murder!"

Where did the sound seem to come from? - Up the court, somewhere. I did not hear it a second time. I did not take any notice of it. Then I went to sleep.

You did not hear any singing? - None whatever. If there had been any at half-past one I should have heard it."
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  #105  
Old 08-19-2016, 07:18 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
Daily News 13th Nov 1888;

"Perhaps the most sensational bit of evidence tendered was that of a garrulous young woman who, with some dramatic force, imitated by voice and action a sort of nightmare cry of "Oh! murder!" which she declared she had heard just after she had been woke up by her kitten rubbing its nose against her face about half-past three or four o'clock on the morning of the murder. It was a faintish cry, she said, as though somebody had woke up with the nightmare, and though the evidence must be taken with the reserve that should attach to all such testimony, the time at which she believes she heard the cry would tally very well with all the circumstances of the case, and it is not impossible that that really was the death gasp of the poor woman in the clutches of her murderer."


Elizabeth Prater's evidence, Echo 12th Nov 1888;

"What was the next thing? - A black kitten, of which I am very fond, came to my bed, and rubbed itself against my face.

It disturbed you? - Yes, it tried to get into the bed, and awoke me. That must have been about half-past four, as I heard the clock chiming. I pushed the kitten away.

Yes? - And, just as I pushed the kitten away I heard, "Oh! Murder!" It was as if it was a nightmare. It was just "Oh! Oh! (in a faint, gasping way) - Murder!"

Where did the sound seem to come from? - Up the court, somewhere. I did not hear it a second time. I did not take any notice of it. Then I went to sleep.

You did not hear any singing? - None whatever. If there had been any at half-past one I should have heard it."
Thanks Joshua
Ive always thought that the cat waking her was because it either was disturbed by the killer entering her room, or perhaps, she had the timing off a bit and the cat was agitated by the smell of blood.

Ive had cats and they get agitated (hungry?)when they smell blood.
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  #106  
Old 08-19-2016, 08:06 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is online now
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Thanks Joshua
Ive always thought that the cat waking her was because it either was disturbed by the killer entering her room, or perhaps, she had the timing off a bit and the cat was agitated by the smell of blood.

Ive had cats and they get agitated (hungry?)when they smell blood.
I don't doubt they do Abby, but it seems a long way for the smell of blood to travel, and as you say would require Prater to be confused about timings. Besides, in my experience, kittens - being generally nocturnal and full of mischief - really don't need such an excuse to jump on your face at 4 in the morning!
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  #107  
Old 08-19-2016, 08:12 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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I don't doubt they do Abby, but it seems a long way for the smell of blood to travel, and as you say would require Prater to be confused about timings. Besides, in my experience, kittens - being generally nocturnal and full of mischief - really don't need such an excuse to jump on your face at 4 in the morning!
this is true. LOL!
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  #108  
Old 11-18-2016, 02:32 PM
spyglass spyglass is offline
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Hi Rocky,

well, what makes you think it is unlikely - and what could the alternative(s) be?

Regards Pierre
Hi Pierre,
A bit late I know, but how about the cry of "oh murder" was in fact Kelly coming home to find a murdered body laying in her room.
It would be enough to make you vomit for a long time, even up to 8/8.30 the following morning.

regards
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  #109  
Old 11-18-2016, 02:46 PM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Hi,

1. What happened between 1.30 and 3.30/3.45 in Kelly´s room?

2. Why did Prater hear "Oh, murder!"?

3."I left the room on the Thursday at five p.m., and returned to it at about one a.m. on Friday morning. I stood at the corner until about twenty minutes past one. No one spoke to me. McCarthy's shop was open, and I called in, and then went to my room. I should have seen a glimmer of light in going up the stairs if there had been a light in deceased's room, but I noticed none. The partition was so thin I could have heard Kelly walk about in the room. I went to bed at half-past one and barricaded the door with two tables. I fell asleep directly and slept soundly. A kitten disturbed me about half-past three o'clock or a quarter to four. As I was turning round I heard a suppressed cry of "Oh - murder!" in a faint voice. "

Regards Pierre
1. Mary passed out after letting Blotchy out.
2. Mary exclaimed that in annoyance at finding someone softly knocking at her door or window at almost 3:45am, while she was sleeping off her binge. She made the exclamation at her open door..which explains both how Elizabeth heard it and Sarah.
3. Diddles woke when the door or window on Marys room was tapped upon.

The easiest answers are often the ones embraced last.
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  #110  
Old 04-20-2017, 05:32 PM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is online now
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I've just noticed a possible explanation for the cry of "Oh, murder!", and why such cries were common, in an article about policing from the Star 3rd Oct;

The police are so fenced in by rules and regulations that they seem to be afraid to act on their own responsibility in a grave emergency. If a deadly fight is taking place in a house they will not enter unless they hear cries of "Murder"
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