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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Mary Jane Kelly

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  #91  
Old 11-26-2015, 05:31 AM
curious4 curious4 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richardnunweek View Post
Hi Abby.
If one takes all the knowledge we have, we have a T.O.D. anytime between 2.30 am Friday 9th, till 9 am the 9th.
That takes into account the statements of Hutchinson and Maxwell, and we have no information that either was lying.
We have Mrs Pickett, knocking at Kelly's door, and receiving no reply close to 8 am, we have Bowyer stating he saw Kelly leave her room around 8 am , and return shortly after, which ties in with Maxwell.
Again we have no information either was not telling the truth, infact, by Bowyer admitting he was playing an illegal game [ pitch] and Maxwell's account being verified, we have conformation of truth.
As for the fire, it is likely either the killer lit it to destroy evidence, or Kelly lit it before 8.am. the blazing fire in the night, to give the killer light, never washed with me.
You are correct, that she wanted to go to the Lord Mayors show, Mrs Picketts knock, and the fact she needed to get up early, resulted in Mrs Maxwell saying''What brings you up this early?''.
We have the same witness saying she was talking to a man, around 8.45 am, we know that Mary returned to her room. so it is possible that this man called on her whilst Kelly was getting dressed into her best clothes , and the jacket and bonnet were on her bed, ready to wear..
Police stated that the Killer acted in daylight[ Times Nov 12th] and burnt a velvet jacket, and bonnet, because they were bloodstained.
Why?
If the items were on the bed, when she was murdered, they would have become bloodstained, and that would tell the police , that the murder happened in daylight, something the killer may have wanted to avoid. as it would be unlikely that the victim would , go to sleep at night with jacket and bonnet in close proximity.
I am sorry you believe this is all ''Silly stuff''..I am merely using information available, and interpreting it, which is all any of us can do.
Regards Richard.
Hello Richard

Sorry, but according to Dew, who knew her quite well, Mary never wore a hat.

Best wishes
C4
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  #92  
Old 11-26-2015, 06:23 AM
RockySullivan RockySullivan is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richardnunweek View Post
Hi Abby.
If one takes all the knowledge we have, we have a T.O.D. anytime between 2.30 am Friday 9th, till 9 am the 9th.
That takes into account the statements of Hutchinson and Maxwell, and we have no information that either was lying.
We have Mrs Pickett, knocking at Kelly's door, and receiving no reply close to 8 am, we have Bowyer stating he saw Kelly leave her room around 8 am , and return shortly after, which ties in with Maxwell.
Again we have no information either was not telling the truth, infact, by Bowyer admitting he was playing an illegal game [ pitch] and Maxwell's account being verified, we have conformation of truth.
As for the fire, it is likely either the killer lit it to destroy evidence, or Kelly lit it before 8.am. the blazing fire in the night, to give the killer light, never washed with me.
You are correct, that she wanted to go to the Lord Mayors show, Mrs Picketts knock, and the fact she needed to get up early, resulted in Mrs Maxwell saying''What brings you up this early?''.
We have the same witness saying she was talking to a man, around 8.45 am, we know that Mary returned to her room. so it is possible that this man called on her whilst Kelly was getting dressed into her best clothes , and the jacket and bonnet were on her bed, ready to wear..
Police stated that the Killer acted in daylight[ Times Nov 12th] and burnt a velvet jacket, and bonnet, because they were bloodstained.
Why?
If the items were on the bed, when she was murdered, they would have become bloodstained, and that would tell the police , that the murder happened in daylight, something the killer may have wanted to avoid. as it would be unlikely that the victim would , go to sleep at night with jacket and bonnet in close proximity.
I am sorry you believe this is all ''Silly stuff''..I am merely using information available, and interpreting it, which is all any of us can do.
Regards Richard.
Bowyer saw Kelly Leave her room that morning? I've never seen that quote can you post it for me? If he claimed that it would mean he claimed to be in the court around when Kelly screamed Murder, saw come out at 8 am and then found her body hours later. What was he doing watching her all late night and morning?
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  #93  
Old 11-26-2015, 07:01 AM
Rosella Rosella is offline
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Pierre, it was a small fireplace and probably a big fire, but I'm not worried about the size of it in particular, just how it was made to flare up and burn, whatever its size. Mary probably had no kindling and no coal, so...?

And don't say clothing in the room (the remains of which were found) and a match, because, although clothing was undoubtedly thrown on a fire which was already burning, it would have needed wood to have got it alight and flaring in the first place. Plus, items of clothing placed on top of a fire smothers it.
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  #94  
Old 11-26-2015, 08:58 AM
Robert St Devil Robert St Devil is offline
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Hello ROSELLA.
Would the kettle have whistled?

BTW do they ever find any of these women's noses?
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  #95  
Old 11-26-2015, 09:14 AM
richardnunweek richardnunweek is offline
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Hi Rocky Sullivan.
Senior moment..I obviously meant to say Maurice Lewis..not Bowyer..hope it did not confuse you too much..Sorry.
Regards Richard.
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  #96  
Old 11-26-2015, 09:21 AM
richardnunweek richardnunweek is offline
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Hi C4,
We have three reports,of a bonnet on the 8th/9th Nov,.Mrs Harvey allegedly said to Kelly.''I am leaving my bonnet for you''on the Thursday.
Mrs Prater reported seeing Kelly at 9pm 8th,at the passage, wearing a jacket and bonnet..
A bonnet was burnt in the grate..which was the only bonnet found therefore Mrs Harvey's.
Although Dew may have mentioned he never saw Kelly wearing a bonnet, it does not mean she did not on her last night...she may have had a date, Thursday evening. she may have wanted to wear it to the Lord mayors show the following day.
Regards Richard.
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  #97  
Old 11-26-2015, 11:41 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curious4 View Post
Sorry, but according to Dew, who knew her quite well, Mary never wore a hat.
Dew also said that army pensioner Tom Bowyer was a "youth" (among other howlers), so I'd treat his recollections with caution. Personally, I feel that Dew "puffed up" his involvement in the Ripper case.
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  #98  
Old 11-26-2015, 12:09 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IchabodCrane View Post
Why did the man loitering in front of Miller's court not enter her room before 2.30?
He wasn't exactly loitering outside Miller's Court, but opposite the entrance to the Court, outside the lodging-house on the other side of the road. He could have been a lodger who'd gone outside for a pipe of tobacco, or even one of the lodging-house staff, e.g. Caroline Maxwell's husband. If so, perhaps Mrs Maxwell's strange story about meeting Kelly after her probable death was an attempted smokescreen

I don't seriously believe that, but I've seen wackier theories in my time!
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  #99  
Old 11-26-2015, 12:11 PM
RockySullivan RockySullivan is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richardnunweek View Post
Hi C4,
We have three reports,of a bonnet on the 8th/9th Nov,.Mrs Harvey allegedly said to Kelly.''I am leaving my bonnet for you''on the Thursday.
Mrs Prater reported seeing Kelly at 9pm 8th,at the passage, wearing a jacket and bonnet..
A bonnet was burnt in the grate..which was the only bonnet found therefore Mrs Harvey's.
Although Dew may have mentioned he never saw Kelly wearing a bonnet, it does not mean she did not on her last night...she may have had a date, Thursday evening. she may have wanted to wear it to the Lord mayors show the following day.
Regards Richard.
No problem Rich
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  #100  
Old 11-26-2015, 07:42 PM
Pcdunn Pcdunn is offline
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Default Whose noses?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert St Devil View Post
BTW do they ever find any of these women's noses?
I'm not quite sure what you mean, Robert St Devil?
Nothing was wrong with Polly's, Annie's, or Liz's noses, to the best of my knowledge.
Kate's nose was partially sliced off, and Mary Jane's face was pretty much flayed, including her nose.

Do you think the noses were important?
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