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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Mary Jane Kelly

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  #111  
Old 04-20-2017, 09:09 PM
Simon Wood Simon Wood is offline
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Hi Joshua,

I guess she was thinking that a couple of cops might have been patrolling Millers Court.

It's funny the things people imagine.

Regards,

Simon
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  #112  
Old 04-21-2017, 02:16 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is offline
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You're such a cynic, Simon. I'm sure in Kelly's case it would have been less a conscious thought process than a desperate, forlorn hope.
But the fact that any PC who did happen to be patrolling outside a private dwelling would be unable or unwilling to enter without this magic word - even if he could hear other screams and cries of obvious distress from within - explains (to me at least) the prevalence of a cry which seems so odd to modern ears.
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  #113  
Old 04-21-2017, 12:43 PM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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I don't know how some of these easier to answer questions keep stumping people.

"oh, murder"...heard by Sarah and Elizabeth. By Sarah, "as if at her door", by Elizabeth, "as if from the court". Not one single sound was heard after that by either woman, and one lived upstairs and could hear when Mary moved furniture around in her room. Ergo..."oh, murder" does not signal a murder was commencing.

The simplest and easiest answer to what was meant by 'oh, murder" is this...Mary heard a knock on her door or window...(diddles awoke upstairs, waking Elizabeth)..and when she groggily answers the door she exclaims "oh, murder" in the same way someone would exclaim "oh, ****" today. It was just dismay at finding someone she wasn't expecting at 4am knocking her up.

This was of course her killer. And it would seem she quietly lets him in,...which answers another question, did she know her attacker? Unequivocally, yes.
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  #114  
Old 04-21-2017, 12:53 PM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
The simplest and easiest answer to what was meant by 'oh, murder" is this...Mary heard a knock on her door or window...(diddles awoke upstairs, waking Elizabeth)..and when she groggily answers the door she exclaims "oh, murder" in the same way someone would exclaim "oh, ****" today. It was just dismay at finding someone she wasn't expecting at 4am knocking her up.
You seriously think that is "the simplest and easiest answer"?
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  #115  
Old 04-21-2017, 01:00 PM
Pierre Pierre is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
I don't know how some of these easier to answer questions keep stumping people.

"oh, murder"...heard by Sarah and Elizabeth. By Sarah, "as if at her door", by Elizabeth, "as if from the court". Not one single sound was heard after that by either woman, and one lived upstairs and could hear when Mary moved furniture around in her room. Ergo..."oh, murder" does not signal a murder was commencing.

The simplest and easiest answer to what was meant by 'oh, murder" is this...Mary heard a knock on her door or window...(diddles awoke upstairs, waking Elizabeth)..and when she groggily answers the door she exclaims "oh, murder" in the same way someone would exclaim "oh, ****" today. It was just dismay at finding someone she wasn't expecting at 4am knocking her up.

This was of course her killer. And it would seem she quietly lets him in,...which answers another question, did she know her attacker? Unequivocally, yes.
There is no evidence that Prater recognized the voice she heard. Why?

Pierre

Last edited by Pierre : 04-21-2017 at 01:10 PM.
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  #116  
Old 04-21-2017, 01:04 PM
Simon Wood Simon Wood is offline
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Hi Joshua,

And you're such a romantic.

Regards,

Simon
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  #117  
Old 04-21-2017, 01:19 PM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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Following the murder of Martha Tabram, Francis Hewitt, the superintendent of the George Yard Buildings, and his wife, told a reporter for the East London Observer (as published on 18 August 1888):

'the district round here is rather rough, and cries of 'Murder' are of frequent, if not nightly, occurrence in the district.'

Thus corroborating the evidence of Elizabeth Prater some three months later.
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  #118  
Old 04-21-2017, 01:23 PM
jason_c jason_c is offline
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Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
I've just noticed a possible explanation for the cry of "Oh, murder!", and why such cries were common, in an article about policing from the Star 3rd Oct;

The police are so fenced in by rules and regulations that they seem to be afraid to act on their own responsibility in a grave emergency. If a deadly fight is taking place in a house they will not enter unless they hear cries of "Murder"
I think this is a plausible explanation. I have a few other thoughts on the matter. Instead of Kelly crying out for a policeman she was crying out for a friendly or inquisitive neighbour. It was Kelly's neighbours in Miller's Court who could have aided her during the attack. It was her neighbours who would have had to drag themselves out of bed to investigate the incident. I think a blood curdling scream would have been Kelly's likely reaction to a mortal threat, but "oh murder" may have been second best. Also, thinking out loud but if Kelly initially felt in danger but not mortal danger she need not have screamed in absolute terror(as I suspect most would when being attacked with a knife).

"Oh murder" sounds awfully like a cry from a Victorian novel. I wonder if the fiction styles of the mid Victorian period had seeped into popular use in the LVP. "Oh murder" may also have been polite rendition of "oh fu.ck". This politeness is either Kelly's or her neighbours or the Newspapers.
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  #119  
Old 04-21-2017, 01:34 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
You're such a cynic, Simon. I'm sure in Kelly's case it would have been less a conscious thought process than a desperate, forlorn hope.
But the fact that any PC who did happen to be patrolling outside a private dwelling would be unable or unwilling to enter without this magic word - even if he could hear other screams and cries of obvious distress from within - explains (to me at least) the prevalence of a cry which seems so odd to modern ears.
Nice find Josh
to me it just establishes that mary was crying out and felt she was in mortal danger.
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  #120  
Old 04-21-2017, 01:37 PM
Pierre Pierre is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Orsam View Post
Following the murder of Martha Tabram, Francis Hewitt, the superintendent of the George Yard Buildings, and his wife, told a reporter for the East London Observer (as published on 18 August 1888):

'the district round here is rather rough, and cries of 'Murder' are of frequent, if not nightly, occurrence in the district.'

Thus corroborating the evidence of Elizabeth Prater some three months later.

Did Prater state that she could recognize the voice?

Did Prater state that she had heard the voice of Kelly?

Pierre
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