Same motive = same killer

[Sam Flynn]

My own hunch is that he was quite aware that the parcels would be found, and that he wrapped them in cloth in order for people to recognize them.
It has also struck me that the parcels may have been dumped in the far west of London so that they would be presented to as many people as possible, floating through what was the powere centre of the largest metropolis on earth.

Isn't that over-dramatising things just a little, Fish? People have been dumping body parts in rivers for centuries, and it still happens. In each case, the aim is invariably to dispose of evidence, not to shock people with some macabre, aquatic version of a sushi conveyor-belt.

[Herlock Sholmes]

He may well have known that body parts will float, apart from heads. Why else would he wrap the parts in cloth, if he believed it would sink? And if he did NOT know, he must have learnt, and he persisted in the practice.
My own hunch is that he was quite aware that the parcels would be found, and that he wrapped them in cloth in order for people to recognize them. A kind of partial signature, therefore.
It has also struck me that the parcels may have been dumped in the far west of London so that they would be presented to as many people as possible, floating through what was the power centre of the largest metropolis on earth.

If I am correct, it seems that he really took all the care in the world to get maximum shock value - and a lot of coverage.

The Ripper deeds were the pinnacle on that score - that was where he reached the maximum coverage. The combination is an appaling one - floating body parts past Whitehall, Scotland Yard and the parliament, effectively the rulers of the world at that stage, and adding killing people in the open streets to that.

This, at least, is what it looks like to me.

You could be right there Fish. Then again, have you ever known me to disagree with you

[jerryd]

Isn't that over-dramatising things just a little, Fish? People have been dumping body parts in rivers for centuries, and it still happens. In each case, the aim is invariably to dispose of evidence, not to shock people with some macabre, aquatic version of a sushi conveyor-belt.

As this is true, Gareth, the bodies we are discussing here were not just the cutting off of limbs, wrapping them up and disposing of them in the river. Some parts were purposely NOT thrown in the river when they easily could have been and the bodies were dissected beyond just cutting off the parts needed for disposal.

[Sam Flynn]

You could be right there Fish.

I don't think that the torso folks were trying to shock at all. They were most likely just dumping evidence to be carried away by the flow, like most riverine body-part dumpers do. How big a visual impact would a severed hand or leg have had against the backdrop of the wide, filthy Thames? I doubt that many would have noticed anything at all.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I don't think that the torso folks were trying to shock at all. They were most likely just dumping evidence to be carried away by the flow, like most riverine body-part dumpers do. How big a visual impact would a severed hand or leg have had against the backdrop of the wide, filthy Thames? I doubt that many would have noticed anything at all.

I was giving a bit too much there Gareth. I agree with you that these were dumpings. Someone trying to get rid of body parts by reducing the chances of them being identified or connected to the perpetrator. I bet we'd be staggered if we actually knew how many bodies or body parts had vanished into the depths of the Thames over the years. By using the river as a dumping ground the guilty party was pretty much leaving it to chance whether the parts were discovered or not.

[jerryd]

The following Chronology is only murders that the authorities linked to each series. The C-5 and the four Thames Mysteries.


1887

May- Rainham Mystery (torso killer)

1888

Aug/Sept- Whitehall Mystery (torso killer)
Aug 31- Polly Nichols (Ripper)
Sept 8- Annie Chapman (Ripper)
Sept 30- Liz Stride (Ripper)
Sept 30- Kate Eddowes (Ripper)
Nov 9- Mary Kelly (Ripper)

1889

June- Elizabeth Jackson (torso killer)
Sept- Pinchin Street torso (torso killer)


So looking at this timeline, and I have made the assumption for this exercise that Dr. Bond and Dr. Hebbert made about the Whitehall torso meeting her death mid to late August, we can see that the torso killer started his work in May of 1887 and then went dormant for 15 months and then he killed again in August of 1888. Then the Ripper begins his work on August 31st and kills until the end of September and goes dormant for a little over a month until his supposed final killing in November. Then nothing from either man for 7 months when the torso killer ends the spree with two killings in June and September of 1889. The torso killer in this timeline starts the killings and ends the killings with the Ripper sandwiched in between. After September of 1889, we hear no more from either man.

[Abby Normal]

I don't think that the torso folks were trying to shock at all. They were most likely just dumping evidence to be carried away by the flow, like most riverine body-part dumpers do. How big a visual impact would a severed hand or leg have had against the backdrop of the wide, filthy Thames? I doubt that many would have noticed anything at all.

Hi Sam

You seem to be just fixated on the parts that were thrown into the Thames.

What about the parts thrown onto the Shelley estate, the Whitehall torso in the vault of the new SY building, the pinchin st torso?

All of these would have been much more difficult and risky than just dumping in the Thames, no?
So why weren’t these thrown into the Thames??

[Abby Normal]

When you know what the torso killer did - and I think I know precisely that - you can actually tell the different cuts from each other as regards which of them represented the killers paraphilia. The cuts to the elbows and knees of the 1873 victim may well have been practical cuts only, for disposal. The ones to the thighs and shoulders were not. There is (of course) a reason for why he did´nt use the same method.

Have a search and see if you can find any other dismemberment killer who does this - saws limbs off in one spot and cuts and disjoints in other spots! It is a VERY confusing and extremely odd thing to do. Once we see such things, there will be a reason for them.

Furthermore, the very same man - in the shape of the Ripper - had absolutely no intention of decapitating Kelly, if I am correct. After having spent a lot of effort carving up her face, he would not want to take the head away from the exhibition.

The two killers exhibited the exact same paraphilia/inspiration ground if I am on the money. And although not unheard of, it is quite rare.

Fish
Which limbs were cut and disjointed and which ones were sawed?

[RockySullivan]

Indeed, but we know one of them lived in Chelsea, not far from the "Battersea Triangle" which seems to be the origin of the majority of the jettisoned body parts from her, and other, cases.

Besides, where did he live? Or they - there could be more than one torso killer, and there quite probably was. Chances are that he/they lived not too far from the Battersea Triangle either.

Of course, those who would pin these murders on the Ripper will say that the Ripper commuted out of Whitechapel to dump the bodies, or commuted into Whitechapel if he fancied a temporary change of MO and start killing random women on the street with the police breathing down his neck.

Like I've said, it just doesn't add up.

Maybe that's why the bodies are dismembered? To hide id's, if the killer lived in the area he was hunting he might have been seen with one of the victims. When he traveled to whitechapel, it wasn't as close to home so he didn't need to take that precaution. He could find a dark corner and do what he wants quickly and then not have to deal with the strenuous clean up. The pinchin torso might have been stored nearby from the way it was dumped. Which would mean the torso killer had a place to keep a torso in whitechapel for a short time (probably was dumped because it started to smell)

[RockySullivan]

Some don't see this as relevant, I do.
Annie Chapman- murdered September 8th, 1888

Whitehall Torso- possibility murdered September 8th, 1888 (according to Dr. Neville)

Pinchin Torso- probably murdered September 8th, 1889

Jerry, if Annie Chapman and the Whitehall Torso were killed on the same date, then wouldn't the most likely scenario be they were killed at the same place, the basement of 29 hanbury st? But if I remember there is some discrepancies about the date and it may have been much earlier. The newspaper is August something and there might have been some type of chemical correct?

[RockySullivan]

The pattern rather falls apart after that, though, doesn't it? Or is 9th November "close enough" to 8th November to cancel out the Double Event?

1 victim of Ripper and 1 Torso victim killed on same exact day (possibly but I actually disagree) and then 1 torso victim on the same day next year? Ha ha the other dates are irrelevant and don't cancel out the severity of the significance

[RockySullivan]

Yes, the discretion involved in placing a rotting torso in the cellar vaults of New Scotland Yard is particularly memorable. Not.

I cannot see how you can even try this line of reasoning, Gareth? If he wanted to be careful and discreet, he should have put the parts in a sack with forty pounds of stones in it, and that would be it. Nobody would have found it.

Instead he took great care to float the bodies, part by part, down a river that passed the power center of the western world. And the parts he kept out of the water, he placed in public places throughout London. There was not a part where he did not make a decent effort to have it found, the way I see it.

Bordered on the discreet? Geez...

I don't know, seems he didn't want the skulls found doesn't it?

[Sam Flynn]

As this is true, Gareth, the bodies we are discussing here were not just the cutting off of limbs, wrapping them up and disposing of them in the river. Some parts were purposely NOT thrown in the river when they easily could have been and the bodies were dissected beyond just cutting off the parts needed for disposal.

It's more likely that the other parts were washed away and/or never found as intended.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Sam

You seem to be just fixated on the parts that were thrown into the Thames.

What about the parts thrown onto the Shelley estate, the Whitehall torso in the vault of the new SY building, the pinchin st torso?

All of these would have been much more difficult and risky than just dumping in the Thames, no?
So why weren’t these thrown into the Thames??

Different perpetrators, I'd suggest.

[RockySullivan]

Different perpetrators, I'd suggest.

Sam what are you suggesting? Parts of the same victim were dumped in the Thames and at the Shelley estate.