Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Hutchinson, George: Possible reason for Hutch coming forward - by Michael W Richards 4 minutes ago.
Hutchinson, George: Possible reason for Hutch coming forward - by Herlock Sholmes 28 minutes ago.
Doctors and Coroners: Baxter's influence on Ripper lore - by Jon Guy 49 minutes ago.
Doctors and Coroners: Baxter's influence on Ripper lore - by Joshua Rogan 55 minutes ago.
Shades of Whitechapel: Caught!? Long Island Serial Killer suspect - by Abby Normal 60 minutes ago.
Doctors and Coroners: Baxter's influence on Ripper lore - by Joshua Rogan 1 hour and 15 minutes ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Doctors and Coroners: Baxter's influence on Ripper lore - (17 posts)
General Suspect Discussion: Kosminski/Kaminsky - please debunk - (9 posts)
Shades of Whitechapel: Caught!? Long Island Serial Killer suspect - (6 posts)
Hutchinson, George: Possible reason for Hutch coming forward - (3 posts)
Non-Fiction: Elizabeth Stride and Jack the Ripper: The Life and Death of the Reputed Third Victim. - (3 posts)
Kosminski, Aaron: My theory on Kosminski - (3 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #511  
Old 10-12-2017, 01:32 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: South london
Posts: 3,715
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
Well, you know, Trevor is the foremost proponent out here for the torso series perhaps not having been committed by one man only, and for the idea that there is no reason to regard the cases as murders.

He used to be, at least. It seems you may be taking over, by the looks of things.

That´s just fine by me. Each to his own.
Hi all

Just a quick comment here.

Have spent some time on the Whitehall case. I do wonder if more than one was involved in disposing of this body part, but see no reason to doubt dismemberment by same hand as other 80's Torsos.

And while one cannot be 100% conclusive that they were murdered, it must be very probably that they were, I see no evidence to suggest any other possible conclusion.




Steve
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #512  
Old 10-12-2017, 01:33 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 15,865
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
Funnily enough (or not) I've just accidentally watched a documentary about the murder of Gemma McCluskie. She was murdered by her brother during an argument, then dismembered and dumped in the Regent's Canal within 3 hours.
Was he trying to make a statement, or simply trying to cover up a crime?
How can we possibly know?
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #513  
Old 10-12-2017, 01:38 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 15,865
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
Hi Zena,

Firstly, to be honest I think that Fish is making it sound a little easier than it probably was to get to where he dumped the body (underground/in the dark/tools and stuff lying around). I'm unsure but he may have had to go down a ladder carrying the parcel (in which case it would have probably been in near total darkness because even if he had a light with him how could he carry that and the parcel whilst negotiating a ladder.)
He could have reconnoitred the site as you suggested. The point that I make on this is that he could have disposed of that part in a thousand easier and less risky (risk of injury I mean) places. So why this site? For some reason I believe that the killer, whoever he was, had made up is mind that it had to be there. An obvious motive is to do with the police. A taunt perhaps? We can't know of course.
To be fair, I don´t know how hard or easy it would be, since I have no idea about the environment and layout of the place.
Just like Zena says, it may be that the killer had scouted the premises before he brought the torso and other body parts there.
In the end, I am left with the same feeling as you - the killer had decided that he wanted to place the torso in the building for some reason, and he was willing to take huge risks and go through whatever difficulty to achieve it.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #514  
Old 10-12-2017, 01:45 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 15,865
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sox View Post
I like it, I admire the cut of your jib ladies and gents and so I shall respond!

Interesting thread, nothing has roused my interest so much in years. I like to think that there is indeed a possibility that these crimes are connected, but if you believe this to be the case, then I think you must also adhere to the possibility that the killer relied largely on circumstance.

The first thing that leapt to my mind was the possibility that some of these crimes were committed when the killer had both time and privacy, while with others, this was obviously not the case. Perhaps when he had a fixed abode, or when he was alone at his place of work, so that he had time to do as he wished. Perhaps the Ripper crimes were committed during times when he had no such luxury?

I do not think we should give too much thought to the 'random' dumping of body parts either, what seems random to us, may well be a part of the 'cunning' plan in a mind that we cannot comprehend. What Nilson said,“The corpse is the dirty platter after the feast”, is nearer to the mark in this case I think.

For decades we have all been the victims of circumstance, hardly looking beyond five unfortunate women who met their end in the grimy streets of the East End. But what if Jack predated 1888 in his nefarious work, what if the very nature of his crimes were, in fact, dictated by his circumstances at the time he killed?

That would, as you ladies and gentlemen have begun to realize, give us a very different breed of killer indeed. Very well done
Well, well! It´s been some time since I saw your name out here. I seem to remember that you pack rather a powerful punch argumentwise, so it´s good to see that you that you seem to like the paths opened up by the suggestion of a shared identity between the Ripper and the Torso man.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #515  
Old 10-12-2017, 01:47 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
Casebook Supporter
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Wales
Posts: 8,931
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
Well, you know, Trevor is the foremost proponent out here for the torso series perhaps not having been committed by one man
I wasn't aware of that, actually. I tend not to follow Trevor's posts too closely.
Quote:
It seems you may be taking over, by the looks of things.
It's eminently feasible that there were different perpetrators between 1873 and 1889. Perhaps one of them - or a syndicate - were involved in more than one of the 1880 cases, and I'm not ruling that out. However, to assume from the outset that the same person was responsible for all of them is going about it the wrong way round.
__________________
Kind regards, Sam Flynn

"Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #516  
Old 10-12-2017, 01:56 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
Casebook Supporter
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Wales
Posts: 8,931
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
Funnily enough (or not) I've just accidentally watched a documentary about the murder of Gemma McCluskie. She was murdered by her brother during an argument, then dismembered and dumped in the Regent's Canal within 3 hours.
Was he trying to make a statement, or simply trying to cover up a crime?
It's far more likely that it was the latter. Most dumpings of bodies are surely intended to cover up crimes, or at least to delay justice.
__________________
Kind regards, Sam Flynn

"Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #517  
Old 10-12-2017, 02:12 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 15,865
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
I wasn't aware of that, actually. I tend not to follow Trevor's posts too closely.
It's eminently feasible that there were different perpetrators between 1873 and 1889. Perhaps one of them - or a syndicate - were involved in more than one of the 1880 cases, and I'm not ruling that out. However, to assume from the outset that the same person was responsible for all of them is going about it the wrong way round.
Far from being eminently feasible, it is a possibility, nothing else. But that possibility is gainsaid by a number of factors that are consistent throughout the whole torso series: the very neat disarticulations, the lack of traces of physical torture, the commonality that all torso victims were cut up in close connection to death, the dumping procedures - and then there is the factor I am keeping from you, which very clearly points to a common inspiration ground. But even without that last factor, it must be said that we are dealing with one very special individual - or two or more individuals who were all very special in the exact same manner. The latter suggestion therefore becomes less credible.

To me, there can be little doubt that the killer was the same from 1873 on.

Last edited by Fisherman : 10-12-2017 at 02:16 AM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #518  
Old 10-12-2017, 02:15 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 15,865
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
It's far more likely that it was the latter. Most dumpings of bodies are surely intended to cover up crimes, or at least to delay justice.
That is true, just a it is true that when we have two serialists in the same town, representing many common and peculiar traits in the way they do damage to their victims, they are to be expected to be the same man.

Logic is consistent in that manner.

Last edited by Fisherman : 10-12-2017 at 02:37 AM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #519  
Old 10-12-2017, 02:20 AM
Jon Guy Jon Guy is online now
Superintendent
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Blighty
Posts: 2,647
Default

Were the body parts all dumped in the warmer months of the year ?
Were the body parts all about to turn when found ?
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #520  
Old 10-12-2017, 03:43 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is online now
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 3,144
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
That is true, just a it is true that when we have two serialists in the same town, representing many common and peculiar traits in the way they do damage to their victims, they are to be expected to be the same man.

Logic is consistent in that manner.
Logic requires pattern and consistency, sequential occurrences. In these cases the behaviors can vary greatly, so its impractical to merely assume a routinely morphing murderer.

I think the crux is what Sam struck on, disposal of remains. Something unseen in the Canonicals, save for some organs. The display was part of the Ripper crimes, the shock value must have been something that was required or desired to complete the act.

If you look at the murder of Polly and Annie there seems to be little to suggest other than a random act of violence upon a stranger, with the ultimate objective being to mutilate the cooling remains. I think the taking of specific organs is a secondary goal. The Torsos were created out of sight and disposed of with some degree of stealth. Had no-one found any of the remains, excluding 1 torso perhaps, the killer likely would have been sated, and content to remain in the shadows. Jack needed the audience.

On the 1 torso perhaps placed, I feel its a political statement.
__________________
Michael Richards

Last edited by Michael W Richards : 10-12-2017 at 03:49 AM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 07:49 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.