Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Maybrick, James: 25 YEARS OF THE DIARY OF JACK THE RIPPER: THE TRUE FACTS by Robert Smith - by MrBarnett 10 minutes ago.
Maybrick, James: 25 YEARS OF THE DIARY OF JACK THE RIPPER: THE TRUE FACTS by Robert Smith - by jmenges 37 minutes ago.
Maybrick, James: 25 YEARS OF THE DIARY OF JACK THE RIPPER: THE TRUE FACTS by Robert Smith - by Abby Normal 38 minutes ago.
Martha Tabram: Probibility of Martha Tabram Being a JtR Victim - by Abby Normal 41 minutes ago.
Martha Tabram: Probibility of Martha Tabram Being a JtR Victim - by Wickerman 44 minutes ago.
Maybrick, James: 25 YEARS OF THE DIARY OF JACK THE RIPPER: THE TRUE FACTS by Robert Smith - by MrBarnett 45 minutes ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Motive, Method and Madness: Same motive = same killer - (83 posts)
Maybrick, James: 25 YEARS OF THE DIARY OF JACK THE RIPPER: THE TRUE FACTS by Robert Smith - (19 posts)
Martha Tabram: Probibility of Martha Tabram Being a JtR Victim - (12 posts)
General Suspect Discussion: Was Jack caught by London underworld? - (4 posts)
General Suspect Discussion: Only one suspect can be shown to have carried a knife. - (2 posts)
General Discussion: IWEC members - (2 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Annie Chapman

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10-11-2017, 09:03 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 3,058
Default The Murder of Annie Chapman

Lets see if we can gain some foothold in this search by gaining universal acceptance of at least one point.

I contend that the quintessential murder of the killer who has come to be known by a pen name was that of Annie Chapmans. In that murder we are given lots of physical evidence, and some circumstantial evidence. Within that data are the Method of Operations and Signatures that we will need to evaluate later murders for a killer.

Are any of those attributes present in the next murder attributed to Jack? No.
Does Annies murder and dissection reveal anything about the most probable Motive?
That he posed as a client, that he subdued before cutting the throat, that he cut twice, that his next objective was the opening of the abdomen, and when the organs sought were excised, the cutting stopped.

Sound like Liz's murder? Or Kates? Or Marys?

How about Pollys?
__________________
Michael Richards
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 10-11-2017, 10:29 AM
Sleuth1888 Sleuth1888 is offline
Constable
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 73
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
Lets see if we can gain some foothold in this search by gaining universal acceptance of at least one point.

I contend that the quintessential murder of the killer who has come to be known by a pen name was that of Annie Chapmans. In that murder we are given lots of physical evidence, and some circumstantial evidence. Within that data are the Method of Operations and Signatures that we will need to evaluate later murders for a killer.

Are any of those attributes present in the next murder attributed to Jack? No.
Does Annies murder and dissection reveal anything about the most probable Motive?
That he posed as a client, that he subdued before cutting the throat, that he cut twice, that his next objective was the opening of the abdomen, and when the organs sought were excised, the cutting stopped.

Sound like Liz's murder? Or Kates? Or Marys?

How about Pollys?
He also used robbery to take at least one ring from Annie's finger.

And yes in one regard it does sound like Polly's and Kelly's murders. And that is the idea that he posed as client
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10-11-2017, 12:33 PM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 3,058
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleuth1888 View Post
He also used robbery to take at least one ring from Annie's finger.

And yes in one regard it does sound like Polly's and Kelly's murders. And that is the idea that he posed as client
Hi Sleuth,

Well, in Pollys case I would certainly agree. I believe she is the introduction to this particular killer, and based on what he learned performing his tricks in the street itself, he modifies his approach to better facilitate extra time after the throat cut to do some pm excising. These 2 murders, to me, have no issues when marrying to one killer.

Its after those 2 that doubt comes into play.
__________________
Michael Richards
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10-11-2017, 12:45 PM
Sleuth1888 Sleuth1888 is offline
Constable
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 73
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
Hi Sleuth,

Well, in Pollys case I would certainly agree. I believe she is the introduction to this particular killer, and based on what he learned performing his tricks in the street itself, he modifies his approach to better facilitate extra time after the throat cut to do some pm excising. These 2 murders, to me, have no issues when marrying to one killer.

Its after those 2 that doubt comes into play.
So you're fine linking Nichols and Kelly (when Nichols was less extensively mutilated) but you have a hard time attributing Chapman and Eddowes to the same killer when Eddowes' injuries were more extensive and more similar to Chapman's than Nichols?
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10-12-2017, 07:27 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 3,058
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleuth1888 View Post
So you're fine linking Nichols and Kelly (when Nichols was less extensively mutilated) but you have a hard time attributing Chapman and Eddowes to the same killer when Eddowes' injuries were more extensive and more similar to Chapman's than Nichols?
Perhaps I was unclear. I have no issues marrying Polly and Annie with the same killer for many reasons, particularly the MO, Signatures and Victimology.

Catherine Eddowes was killed in much the same manner, but with appreciably less skill than was demonstrated in Hanbury. plus she has injuries we can call superfluous, where Annies wounds seem focused on the objective achieved. Mary Kelly is another matter altogether, we have no evidence that she was soliciting when she met her killer...we do with both Polly and Annie from their own mouths, we know she is indoors and undressed when she is attacked, we know she is a bout half the age of any other Canonical, and we can see many actions taken in that room that relate to no previous attack. Plus the same organ that was taken twice before Mary is left under her head.

Annies murder fits very naturally with Pollys in that exact sequence and timeframe. Liz fits with many, many violent acts in The East End and none of the other Canonicals, and Kate fits in part with the first 2 victims. Anyone who assumes he just went further in room 13 must also provide some evidence that there are signs that was intended or desired prior to Mary.

I don't see any interruptions to prevent any further acts after perhaps Polly.

My list is 2, perhaps 3 by the Jack fellow...although I'm more comfortable saying just 2.
__________________
Michael Richards
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10-12-2017, 08:18 AM
Pontius2000 Pontius2000 is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 276
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
Mary Kelly is another matter altogether, we have no evidence that she was soliciting when she met her killer...
She was a known prostitute. She was drinking in a pub prior to her murder. A male acquaintance said she "asked" him for money and later says he saw her approached by a male that she then went walking toward her room with. She was killed on her bed and was nearly naked. Other than video footage or a signed statement saying "I was soliciting", I'm not sure what other evidence one could expect to prove that she was soliciting.

As for the suggestion of more than one killer...

All C5 were killed silently and appeared to have not put up a struggle.
All C5 had their throats cut
All C5 were lying down, seemingly on their left sides (except Kelly) when their throats were cut, indicating that they were incapacitated first and then put down on the ground
All (but Stride) had their abdomens opened. 2, 4, and 5 were disembowelled.
Chapmen had more organs removed than Nichols- Eddowes had more organs removed than Chapman- Kelly had more organs removed than Eddowes. This all indicates a progression.
Victims 4 and 5 had extensive facial mutilations, and 5's were worse 4's. This also indicates a progression.
Victim 5 had the disembowellment, organ removal, facial mutilation. And then progressed on to breast removal and limb denudement.

All that considered, I think you'd need some very hard evidence to suggest that 2 nearly identical killers were operating within a square mile of each other at the same time
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 10-12-2017, 08:53 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: South london
Posts: 3,647
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
Perhaps I was unclear. I have no issues marrying Polly and Annie with the same killer for many reasons, particularly the MO, Signatures and Victimology.

Catherine Eddowes was killed in much the same manner, but with appreciably less skill than was demonstrated in Hanbury. plus she has injuries we can call superfluous, where Annies wounds seem focused on the objective achieved. Mary Kelly is another matter altogether, we have no evidence that she was soliciting when she met her killer...we do with both Polly and Annie from their own mouths, we know she is indoors and undressed when she is attacked, we know she is a bout half the age of any other Canonical, and we can see many actions taken in that room that relate to no previous attack. Plus the same organ that was taken twice before Mary is left under her head.

Annies murder fits very naturally with Pollys in that exact sequence and timeframe. Liz fits with many, many violent acts in The East End and none of the other Canonicals, and Kate fits in part with the first 2 victims. Anyone who assumes he just went further in room 13 must also provide some evidence that there are signs that was intended or desired prior to Mary.

I don't see any interruptions to prevent any further acts after perhaps Polly.

My list is 2, perhaps 3 by the Jack fellow...although I'm more comfortable saying just 2.
Sorry Michael I disagree with your comparison of Chapman and Eddowes, the degree of skill shown is a subjective opinion of a Doctor in 1888.

Cheers


Steve
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 06:13 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.