Sims Versus Abberline

[Trevor Marriott]

If Swanson was lying, he must have been lying to himself as the marginalia seem to be meant for his own use - a clarification and expansion of Anderson's claims.

Best wishes,
Steve.

Ah the marginaila isnt the jury still out on that topic ?

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

Hi Norma.

Now Trevor,you must know that Godley who arrested Chapman and also worked on the Ripper case in 1888 , was reported as being in agreement with Abberline.

Could you tell me exactly where this was reported? Recently I looked for evidence that Godley believed that Chapman/Klosowski was the Ripper and could not find any source which confirmed this.

Wolf.

[Steven Russell]

Ah the marginaila isnt the jury still out on that topic ?

I don't think its authenticity is seriously in question and its purpose seems clear.

Best wishes,
Steve.

[HelenaWojtczak]

Hi Norma.



Could you tell me exactly where this was reported? Recently I looked for evidence that Godley believed that Chapman/Klosowski was the Ripper and could not find any source which confirmed this.

Wolf.

I am also looking for that source, and cannot find it!

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Norma.



Could you tell me exactly where this was reported? Recently I looked for evidence that Godley believed that Chapman/Klosowski was the Ripper and could not find any source which confirmed this.

Wolf.

Hi Wolf,
Sorry but I am in North Wales at the moment without my books.
What I do know is that HL Adam ,in his book The Trial Of George Chapman , thanks Inspector Godley for his assistance in preparing this book. However the specific reference ,not only to Godley but also to several other policemen who had dealt with the ripper investigation believing JtR and Chapman were one and the same,is in the Complete JtR by Sugden and can be found in the chapter on Klosowski/Chapman.
Best
Norma

[Natalie Severn]

I don't think its authenticity is seriously in question and its purpose seems clear.

Best wishes,
Steve.

The jury is still out Steve.

[Natalie Severn]

You are right they only made comments so why are so many people fixated about those comments when it comes to their own choice of individual suspects.

Clearly when they all made those comments they had their own agenda for doing so a bit like "What do dont know make up, bullshit baffles brains" especialy when it cant be proved or disproved then, but now 123 year later we can prove and disprove some of those things. But when we disprove them today some will still not accept the fact that on the face of it all were lying.

Over this I completely agree with you Trevor.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Norma.



Could you tell me exactly where this was reported? Recently I looked for evidence that Godley believed that Chapman/Klosowski was the Ripper and could not find any source which confirmed this.

Wolf.

Hi Wolf
It it written to that effect in The A-Z under Severin Klosowski so it must be right

[Jonathan H]

I was in a hurry and did not have time to mention that the retired Jack Littlechild also did not claim to know, with certainty, that Tumblety was the Ripper (though I subscribe to the theory that he believed the Irish-Amercian was the suspect).

Nor was he necessarily seeking public attention for his point to Sims' about his suicided doctor/alleged chief suspect being pursued too late by the constabulary -- that the real suicided doctor had actually been arrested, and jumped bail. That Sims, who was Littlechild's social superior, but law enforcement inferior, had been misled about a CID bungle by Anderson, via Griffiths -- which was wholly mistaken anyway.

It could be counter-argued that Littlechild in writing to a very famous journalist, might have hoped that this -- as he saw it -- corrective opinion was propagated to the public, but it was not: the 'Dr D' mythos remained intact, and 'Dr T' forgotten.

That's hardly attention-seeking?

What you fail to realise, Trevor, is that historical sources contradict each other all the time; about all sorts of things, both grand and trivial, tragic and comic.

The idea that since all of these significant police figures contradict each other (except, no less, than the head of CID and operational head of the case who arguably agree completely) then they cancel each other out is a theory.

A theory, not a fact.

[Trevor Marriott]

I was in a hurry and did not have time to mention that the retired Jack Littlechild also did not claim to know, with certainty, that Tumblety was the Ripper (though I subscribe to the theory that he believed the Irish-Amercian was the suspect).

Nor was he necessarily seeking public attention for his point to Sims' about his suicided doctor/alleged chief suspect being pursued too late by the constabulary -- that the real suicided doctor had actually been arrested, and jumped bail. That Sims, who was Littlechild's social superior, but law enforcement inferior, had been misled about a CID bungle by Anderson, via Griffiths -- which was wholly mistaken anyway.

It could be counter-argued that Littlechild in writing to a very famous journalist, might have hoped that this -- as he saw it -- corrective opinion was propagated to the public, but it was not: the 'Dr D' mythos remained intact, and 'Dr T' forgotten.

That's hardly attention-seeking?

What you fail to realise, Trevor, is that historical sources contradict each other all the time; about all sorts of things, both grand and trivial, tragic and comic.

The idea that since all of these significant police figures contradict each other (except, no less, than the head of CID and operational head of the case who arguably agree completely) then they cancel each other out is a theory.

A theory, not a fact.

Well Jonathan

Facts speak for themselves anyone can theorise.

[Jonathan H]

Case Closed?

Facts speak for themselves.

Really?

They don't need interpreting, is that what you mean?

Suits me:

In public, under his own name, a senior, highly regarded, hands-on police chief, Sir Melville Macnaghten, claimed that the Ripper's identity became known to him due to 'certain facts' (hey, there's that word) being learned 'some years after' the suspect had taken his own life, which led to a 'conclusion' about his culpability. So, Macnaghten wasn't too late to investigate such a posthumous suspect, who 'in all probability' was Jack.

So, that's that.

[Trevor Marriott]

Facts speak for themselves.

Really?

They don't need interpreting, is that what you mean?

Suits me:

In public, under his own name, a senior, highly regarded, hands-on police chief, Sir Melville Macnaghten, claimed that the Ripper's identity became known to him due to 'certain facts' (hey, there's that word) being learned 'some years after' the suspect had taken his own life, which led to a 'conclusion' about his culpability. So, Macnaghten wasn't too late to investigate such a posthumous suspect, who 'in all probability' was Jack.

So, that's that.

Jonathan

You need to take the blinkers off Druitt was no more the Ripper than any of the other persons named in the memo.

[bolo]

Hello Wolf,

Recently I looked for evidence that Godley believed that Chapman/Klosowski was the Ripper and could not find any source which confirmed this.

According to Complete History (pg. 449, rev. ed. 2002), Godley started suspecting Chapman during preparations for the case against him in 1903. This was followed by an article in the Daily Chronicle on March 23rd, 1903 (pp. 449-450):

"The police officers who have been engaged in tracing Klosowski's movements in connection with the three murders which he was charged, are forming some rather startling theories as to the antecedent history of the criminal. These theories are connected with the Whitechapel murders which startled the world some fifteen years ago, and were attributed to 'Jack the Ripper'. [...] In light of these and other definite statements, the police have considerable doubt wether the full extent of the criminality of Klosowski has been nearly revealed by the recent investigations, remarkable as they were in their extent.".

A few days (?) later, Abberline's comments regarding Chapman appeared in a Pall Mall Gazette interview (no date given):

"What an extraordinary thing it is that you should just have called upon me now. I had just commenced, not knowing anything about the report in the newspaper, to write to the Assistant Commissioner of Police, Mr. Macnaghten, to say how strongly I was impressed with the opinion that Chapman was also the author of the Whitechapel murders.".

Of course this does not prove that Godley was absolutely convinced about Chapman but I think it's safe to say that he rated him as a strong suspect.

Regards,

Boris

[Jonathan H]

Blinkers?

Quite apart from the fact that I acknowledge other plausible theories based on limited and contradictory evidence, and have argued them myself, if I do not speak for the man who actually was Jack the Ripper -- a terrible way of putting it I grant you -- then who else will...?

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

Hi Norma and Boris.

You both missed this from Sugden:

“A coterie of top detectives – Abberline, Godley and Neil – thus developed the strong conviction that Severin Klosowski, the man hanged at Wandsworth as George Chapman, was also Jack the Ripper.”
Sugden, The Complete Jack the Ripper, revised paperback edition, page 455.

The problem here is that, as I said, nowhere is there any actual proof that Godley suspected Klosowski of being the Ripper.

There is the newspaper report which mentions “The police officers who have been engaged in tracing Klosowski's movements in connection with the three murders which he was charged…” (which Sugden apparently means Godley) but no actual names are given nor are any of these police officers interviewed so that it might mean Godley or it might not.

H.L. Adam does thank Godley in his preface but so what. Godley is the last person thanked and, as Adam states, “[He] probably knows more than any one else about the life and career of this criminal.” Since the Introduction, the first 53 pages of the book, only 8 of which are about the Whitechapel Murders, are dedicated to “the life and career” of Klosowski this isn’t a surprise. Nowhere does Adam state that Godley thought that Klosowski was the Ripper.

Sugden points out that information that Adam used regarding Abberline’s beliefs must have come from Godley but this doesn’t mean that Godley supported these beliefs.

All in all there seems to be absolutely no direct evidence showing what Godley thought or didn’t think about Severin Klosowski and the Ripper Murders. It’s all supposition and assumption.

Wolf.