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  #131  
Old 07-20-2017, 11:11 AM
Pcdunn Pcdunn is offline
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Default Ah, I see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Wood View Post
Hi PC Dunn,

Attachment 18149

Regards,

Simon
That clarifies things for me, Simon, thank you.

By the way, the blanket or coat draped around the poor man's shoulders could be hiding the mess of the back of his head-- but may also conceal a photographer's support of some sort. These were used for both living and deceased subjects, to help them stay still (and upright) long enough for the exposure time needed.
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  #132  
Old Yesterday, 02:23 AM
Phil Carter Phil Carter is offline
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Hello David,

Pardon my tardiness in replying.

I do not deny that the tying of the rope around the body to the chair would stop the body from falling to the floor.
I merely state about the neck and shoulder muscles being relaxed..causing the head and shoulders to slump forward.

As regards any "conspiracy" as you introduced the word. I am not convinced of that either. However, the possibility of things unknown going on cannot be ruled out.

I have not stated nor opined the photo/engraving is manipulated either..Those are your suggestions. I do however find it very odd indeed that a photograph taken in this position was even officially necessary.

As to the point regarding suicide. Pat has suggested the blanket would cover the damage to the rear of the head.
As far as that is concerned. Yes it is possible.

Just one thing David. Please do not assume that people whi question things are "conspiratorial". This isn't a winner takes all thing. I suggested you give me a photo of a board being used to prop up a dead body for a photograph. I'm still waiting. I'd be surprised if you found one though. Even if you didn't. .it doesn't matter. . Im not insisting Im right either way.



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  #133  
Old Yesterday, 02:49 AM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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Phil, I don't think you even know what you are saying. I certainly asked you on more than one occasion to tell me what you think was going on but there was only silence from you.

Here is what you have said in your previous posts:

"If the engraving. .from a photograph as Simon shows.. is of a dead person, having died by suicide in the manner described, with the exit wound in the place you quote, there is no way on God's earth the neck could support the head in an upright sitting position without being affixed as exampled by the Eddowes mortuary photograph."

"The neck muscles would not support a head on a dead body sitting upright in a chair...without fixed support."

"If the engraving is from a photograph..which it is.. there is no way the head would support itself WITHOUT being held up. The head is not being held up in the photographic engraving. And..the head would slump forward onto the chest. There is nothing supporting it."

"Piggots head would have fallen forward onto his chest. And the ropes cannot contain the upper body muscle relaxation or neck muscle relaxation."

So there you are saying categorically that what we see in the illustration is impossible according to the laws of physics. Yet the illustration is supposed to be taken from a photograph. So what else are you doing but challenging the authenticity of the illustration?

Even in your most recent post you say:

"I do however find it very odd indeed that a photograph taken in this position was even officially necessary."

But if the illustration comes from a photograph then clearly such a photograph was taken. Unless of course you challenge the authenticity of the illustration. Do you?

Or are you saying that you don't think Pigott was dead in the illustration (and photograph)? But that would involve a conspiracy of the most enormous proportions!!!! The very thing you deny alleging.

But then you did say:

"Err..if he was dead..tied to the chair in the mortuary.. Please explain the point in tying him up after death?"

"if" he was dead, you say. Do you doubt it?

You have also said:

"I find the whole scenario most odd. A body washed and cleaned yet dressed..fully dressed..and sat on a chair..tied up..after death..for id purposes?"

Again you seem to be challenging exactly what we see in the illustration.

As for a conspiracy, here is what you said:

"I also note the very slight injuries to the face. Extremely slight given a gun had just gone off in his mouth methinks."

So you seem to be doubting that Pigott did shoot himself in the mouth. Do you not realise the massive conspiracy that would have to have been in place if Pigott did shoot himself in the mouth?

Perhaps you don't.

You need to think it through Phil.

Here is what actually happened.

Pigott committed suicide before he could be arrested. Proving his identity was essential. A photograph needed to be taken. It was most convenient for the photographer, and for any visitors making an ID, to view Pigott dressed in an upright position for the purposes of the identification, rather than horizontal on a slab and naked. His corpse was therefore placed onto a chair, to which he needed to be tied onto to stop him slumping down and falling on the floor.

If there was a problem with his posture this could have been resolved with some form of support. And, no, Phil I do not carry around photographs of dead people in chairs with me. It doesn't matter if this was the first time anything like this was done, it was clearly done.

If you don't think it was done, please tell us what could CONCEIVABLY be going in the illustration? I've answered all your questions, it's time for you to start answering some yourself.
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  #134  
Old Yesterday, 03:57 AM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Sorry for this being a double photo, I couldn't separate the two, but it's the aparatus on the right that was commonly used to support a corpse whether standing or sitting.
At point 'R' there is a two-pronged clamp which supports the head under the ears.

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  #135  
Old Yesterday, 04:03 AM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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Yes, I'm sure all kinds of contraptions were available.

My thinking is that because the Spanish mortuary used the crude solution of a rope, which was visible from the front, they didn't have access to such sophisticated devices. There might nevertheless have been some hidden support used behind Pigott's back but, frankly, I don't think it would have been necessary, because I don't agree with Phil Carter and his physics lesson at all . The rope, tied tightly, would, in my opinion, have produced exactly what we see in the illustration, with the corpse's head drooping slightly. But there's just no room or ability for any other parts of the body to move.
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  #136  
Old Yesterday, 05:13 AM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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Two more questions for Phil.

1. When you keep saying "odd" do you simply mean "unusual"?

Because, of course it was a very unusual situation wasn't it? Pigott has died in a foreign country where no-one knows him either well enough, or at all, to be able to formally identify him. We are in 1888 where there is no means of electronically transmitting a photograph. And those mortuary photographs on the slabs don't often look very "lifelike" do they? So I can perfectly understand why they wanted the most natural looking photograph to assist in the identification. Can't you?

2. When you said this:

"If the engraving. .from a photograph as Simon shows.. is of a dead person, having died by suicide in the manner described, with the exit wound in the place you quote, there is no way on God's earth the neck could support the head in an upright sitting position without being affixed as exampled by the Eddowes mortuary photograph."


What was the point you were making about the manner of death? What difference would it have made if the person had committed suicide by, say, taking poison or had been murdered, say, by being stabbed with a knife? How would it changed how the neck could support the head in an upright sitting position?

Or, as I have asked above, were you trying to say that the person in the engraving is not dead?
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  #137  
Old Today, 02:44 PM
Phil Carter Phil Carter is offline
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David

I dont know what was going on. Hence the non reply.
As I said. I dont NEED to be right.
You seem to HAVE to be.
Every time.


Why?

And if you don't get answers we get long posts re quoting. It won't help your cause.



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  #138  
Old Today, 03:42 PM
Phil Carter Phil Carter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
Sorry for this being a double photo, I couldn't separate the two, but it's the aparatus on the right that was commonly used to support a corpse whether standing or sitting.
At point 'R' there is a two-pronged clamp which supports the head under the ears.

Hello Jon

Well..
If this was used..the ropes would not have been needed.
So obviously..it wasnt.


Phil
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