Ep. #46- The Non-Canonical Victims: Part One

[jmenges]

Hey Debs! Congrats! I promise not to bug you for a month or two

I thought the discussion on the clasp knife vs the pen knife was pretty interesting stuff, if I must say so...

learning and all...

And also the topic of middle class offenders, or serial killers targeting victims below their class status was a good one. Debatable, since I can think of a few middle class serial killers who targeted middle class women (Bundy & BTK for example) and can think of lower class serial killers who targeted victims from a higher-than-lower class (some Henry Lee Lucas and Otis Toole killings, example). But prostitute murderers (or murderers of supposed prostitutes): Do they always come from a higher class? Needless to say, being one of the prostitute class is about as low as you can go, so in today's time, anyone who murders them stands a good chance of being above them class-wise. But I hope you see what I mean.

Please discuss...

JM

[Cap'n Jack]

I think the point I was attempting to make, JM, was that the serial killers of prostitutes seemed to be from a settled lower to middle class, home owners, with transport, and good jobs that paid them well; but they preyed on a very unsettled lower class, mostly homeless, with no transport, and no jobs, and no money... therefore we are wasting our time looking for a killer who occupied the same space and dimension of the victims.

[Jon Guy]

therefore we are wasting our time looking for a killer who occupied the same space and dimension of the victims.

In an area where where the likes of Dr Phillips and D.C. Marriott lived around the corner from Mary Kelly ?

[Cap'n Jack]

I was referring to their class, occupation and wealth rather than the geographical location... sorry, I should have made that clearer in my initial post.

[Fisherman]

Jon Guy writes:

"In an area where where the likes of Dr Phillips and D.C. Marriott lived around the corner from Mary Kelly "

Excuse an uneducated Swede, but ... D C Marriott? As in the Marriott hotels?? Or?

Fisherman

[Jon Guy]

D.C. Marriott lived around the corner from Mary Kelly

D C Marriott? As in the Marriott hotels?? Or?

Det Constable Edward Marriott
26 yrs. Married Emily, 25 yrs. In 1891 lived at 24 Spital Sq.
City Police Plainclothes Detective.

At 01.58 am on 30th Sept 88 was with Halse and Outram by Aldgate Church on the corner of Houndsditch and Aldgate when they heard Morris`s whistle upon discovery of Kate Eddowes in Mitre Sq.

[Fisherman]

Ah, thanks, Jon - I thought that we were speaking social conditions ... Clears things up!

Fisherman

[Jon Guy]

Not Aristocracy I grant you, my friend, but a world apart, and literally around the corner.

[Dorian Gray]

Hey Debs! Congrats! I promise not to bug you for a month or two

I thought the discussion on the clasp knife vs the pen knife was pretty interesting stuff, if I must say so...

JM

First, an excellent pod-cast as usual. I've been lurking for sometime, and meant to post an introduction, but it was too damn long. So, my first post....

Just a few general points concerning the difference between pen/pocket knives and clasp-knives. Both are folding knives. A clasp-knife locks into position and will act like a fixed blade until unlocked. The mechanism to unlock the blade varies with the maker. Usually, clasp-knives have one blade. The blades of clasp-knives have more heft, and are wider and longer blades than a pen/pocket knife. Clasp-knives also have a better fitting grip or handle when in one's hand.

Generally, a pen/pocket knife does not possess a locking system, though locking pen/pocket knives do exist. Older pen knives could be fixed blades, yet those blades were very short and were used to trim quills. "An ordinary pen knife," must be what one would consider a pocket knife.

Pen/pocket knives are utilitarian: a common tool one might carry for daily activities. Clasp-knives, in my experience, are used by people who need a good knife. For instance, I've always carried a pocket knife, but while hunting with my grandfather as a child he would bring his clasp knife to dress the kill.

One last point: If the blade does not lock into position and pressure is accidently applied to the top of the blade, the blade will fold back, often on one's hand. Been there, done that. Stabbing with a pocket/pen knife that does not lock would be a very bad idea-- one miss and the force of the blow would quickly fold the edge of the blade into one's hand.

Regards,

Dorian

[Ally]

Dorian,

Thanks for the info. That helps clarify tremendously.

See JM, we need to get intelligent people on the podcast who know stuff instead of you know.... me.

[Ben]

Hi all,

Apologies again to JM for missing the last (excellent) podcast, as I would have liked to have offered my tuppence worth on the "class" issue. If the preponderance of serial killers have come from working class backgrounds, I'd observe that the "working class" percentage of prostitute serial killers is even higher. Steve Wright, Peter Sutcliffe, Douglas Clark, Arthur Shawcross, John Eric Armstrong, Vincent Johnson and Robert Pickton all came from working class families and backgrounds. Many were employed at menial tasks or were otherwise "odd-jobers", such as Joel Rifkin.

Geography may also give a clue to the social class of the offender. A close cluster of crime scenes (especially those that are easily walkable) will usually point to an offender living, if not centrally to their crime venues, a relatively short distance away, and since the vast majority populaton of the area encompassing the Whitechapel murders comprised the lower classes, it would seem highly probable that the killer belonged to that number.

I doubt that JTR was appreciably wealthier than his victims.

Best regards,
Ben

[Roy Corduroy]

Hi Ben,

With the exception of Mary Kelly, the victims were all middle aged. So I don't find comparing the Whitechapel victims to almost any set of serial killer prostitute victims very helpful. And therefore comparing those known serial killers with the man we seek. Because those other cases had young victims.

My comment is not directed at you personally Ben, of course. This is done all the time in books, articles and on the boards. I don't agree with it.

Roy

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Roy,

With the exception of Mary Kelly, the victims were all middle aged. So I don't find comparing the Whitechapel victims to almost any set of serial killer prostitute victims very helpful.

As Ally - rightly - pointed out in the podcast, SKs tend to target the vulnerable. (Personally, I'd observe that one-off offenders - whether killers or not - tend to do much the same.) It just so happens that a high proportion of vulnerable women over the age of 40 ended up on the streets around Victorian slums. If Sutcliffe, Ridgway or Wright had lived in 19th Century London, I wouldn't be surprised if most of their victims would have had a similar "profile" to those of the Whitechapel Murderers (plural).

[Archaic]

uh-oh... Real 'Pen Knives'

I just want to say "Hi" & welcome Dorian Gray to the boards.

You named yourself after one of my favorite novels, so I like you already!

And thanks for the info on the pen-knife/clasp-knife comparison; much appreciated.
I found this site selling REAL Pen-Knives. I sure hope schools know about them; they look pretty dangerous

http://www.tbotech.com/penknives.htm

Best regards, Archaic

[Cap'n Jack]

I'm not fully up to speed on every killer Ben mentions, but I do suspect most were home owners, wage earners and with transport... this is the distinction I have been trying to make, as this moves them into a class somewhat above a homeless, wageless victim with no means of transport.