"...but because you are going to hang me you will get nothing out of me..."

[GregBaron]

Closing the gap...

Surely the essence of stables, per-se, is that the pony/horse is relieved of it's working gear and bit, and placed in a stall...you don't take a horse and cart into a stable and leave the cart and gear still attached...quite apart from which you couldn't get the cart into a stall, and you surely wouldn't leave Dobbin out loose...

More to the point, IS a stable such a good place to regroup? We know how Diemschitz's pony responded to a freshly slain body...I'd think a killer with bloody clothing, bloody knife and possibly trophies too, might well spook strange horses were he to enter into a confined space with them...

Frankly I'd buy into this more if Bury were renting say a back yard from a mate prepared to turn a blind eye to his nocturnal activities...

All the best

Dave

Thanks Dave, this is good stuff. If the horse is separated as you suggest, I wonder where the cart might be located. Perhaps it could be carted off(!) somewhere where the deviant might use it as a makeshift bolt hole? Perhaps not, I don't know. Maybe the carts were corralled in another area. We can also wonder if Bury just parked it somewhere without using a stable....just went off on foot and returned when he was ready...?

I've heard this idea of horses shying from blood and although I personally don't know it to be a fact it makes perfect sense to me. But again, if the cart is separated then the original idea stands....


Greg

[Cogidubnus]

We do know however that Bury usually stabled his horse close to 3 Spanby Road, (whence he and Ellen moved in August 1888).

According to Beadle (P98) we get this from the statement of William Smith, his landlord, dated 14th February 1889.

All the best

Dave

[Mayerling]

Hello, Jeff,

Good to hear from you.

Like you, I had realized that the quote might have been altered, but had not really considered that there was no statement, but that Berry had created one.

I suppose both are possible.

What I most considered is that people put synonyms from their own vocabulary into "quotes."

I have seen this happen with young women to whom I have quoted 4 weeks as a deadline for their wedding story. They have been positive I've said a month. We gave up and made the deadline a month. Their minds simply translated 4 weeks into a month.

Another example is also directly from my own experience. When I interview people, I write down information as well as record it. But I make it a habit to listen to the recording to insert the quote into a story because quite frequently I will substitute a synonym in the middle of the quote as the young women so often did with the "month."

I has suspected Berry of doing that with "I suppose" instead of using "reckon" -- which is another word we should look for in Bury's writings.

That's the kind of change I would expect to see in a "quote" -- not a statement made of "whole cloth" or totally bogus, which is completely possible, too, of course.

However, in Berry's line of work. I would think that people facing the gallows might be very intense, very memorable. Plus, Berry likely reported back to his superiors, maybe to newspapers (?) and perhaps to British officers who had been sent to check him out. In that case, the conversation might be more deeply ingrained.

Think I'll go back and reread Beale's book. I did manage to find it last night.

curious

Hi Curious,

Thank you for the complement.

I find that memory is very tricky, as it competes with other fuctions of our brain. We tend to mold it to what we wish to believe. James Berry was a very interesting man - he tried to be a good, relatively humane executioner, but had several awful experiences in his career (his beheading hanging of Robert Goodale in 1884 was one of them). Eventually he got fed up and became an eloquent spokesperson against capital punishment (bravo for him, actually!). Still he was also a man with some degree of pride in his work. He had those fancy calling cards to hand out proclaiming him as public executioner. This in an age when it usually was not bragged about.

He probably heard some comment, and mentioned it. He more than likely polished up the wording in his own mind and presented it to the detectives. He also more than likely added thought to his 1911 memoir about the incident. I would imagine that he really did have some experience but it was not quite what he made it seem. Bury probably was not in the mood scant minutes before his own death to settle questions about his career with any hangman or detective.

Jeff

[Mayerling]

Hi Mayerling - thanks for your thoughts,

Just on this comment



These other suspects, did they also live within a few miles of Whitechapel at the time of the murders? and did the murders stop suddenly when they left? Were they also known to make use of prostitutes? Did they have the freedom to come and go and linger out all night on occasions? Were they also (broadly speaking) the same age and height as the witnesses statements? Were they known to be violent to women? Is their any evidence of them being violent to women in a pub in Whitechapel? Did they sleep with knives under their pillows? Had they been known to threaten women with knives? When they murdered their victims was their method to use a blitz attack and choking, followed by ritualistic mutilations on and around the genital area?

If they tick all these boxes then i would agree with you about their claims being as valid as Bury

Hi Boggle,

Actually none of that group fit the "Bury" fit for being a Ripper suspect. I only mentioned them in a subset for those who were executed for other murders and suggested for being "Jack". However three of them certainly fit something into the set of of points you bring up. Keep in mind, please, that I have never settled on any named suspect as THE RIPPER SUSPECT.

Mary Pearcey was living in London in 1888-90 (the year of her double murder and trial, conviction and execution). She lived in St. John's Wood section, and her chief victim (Phoebe Hogg) was the successful rival who married Frank Hogg. Phoebe and her baby were killed (the baby was smothered under her mother's body by Mary in her home. Phoebe was basically stabbed and hacked by a knife wielding Mary. The body of Phoebe (covering and smothering her baby) were transported in the parambulator to the local park and dumped there. The discovery of the corpses suggested Jack the Ripper was active, but not in the East End. Eventually though, police investigation led back to Mary Pearcey's home, which was covered in bloodstains. When asked why there were such stains, Pearcey smiled and said she had been killing mice. There have been serious questions as to her mental state since her death at the end of Mr. Berry's rope in 1890.

George Chapman (under his Polish name) live in the East End in 1888, and was briefly under suspicion at the time, until he moved to the U.S. in 1890. Later he was to be arrested (in 1902) and tried and executed in 1903 for the poisoning of three wives he had. Since his modus operandi was poison many have objected to his being the Ripper (who used knives). But Chapman had been a barber surgeon, and could have had access to such devices. Also there is the now notorious comment of Abberline to Inspector Godley, "You have finally caught "Jack the Ripper" at last!", a quote I find curiously like one nearly twenty years earlier by Abberline regarding the capture of the three Netherby Hall burglary-murderers, one of whom was wanted for possible involvement with the murder if Chief Inspector Simmons near Romford in 1884.

Finally we come to Frederick Bailey Deeming. Here you can make a choice.
You can say he was not in England in 1888 or he was. Throughout 1888 Fred Deeming was on the move ahead of the police in South Africa and elsewhere. However some people later said he was in the East End in that fall and winter of 1888, and even commented on the double murder of Eddowes and Stride. His own crimes were domestic (he wiped out his first wife and four children in a variety of ways near Liverpool (Rainhill) in 1891, and buried their bodies in the floor of the kitchen, and then murdered a second wife at Melbourne, then in the colony of Victoria (now in Australia) in 1892 - the latter was the crime he was charged with. He collected sharp weapons, including a really sharp axe. Also, if you feel that the Goulston Street graffito is Ripper connected and was hinting at Masonic terms (the word "Juwes" may be a Masonic term), Fredrick Deeming liked to use Masonic terms all over the place.

As for Dr. Thomas Neill Cream, I suppose he was still in Joliet Prison in Illinois in 1888 (which rules him out), and Dr. Harry Howard Holmes (a.k.a.
Dr. Herbert Mudgett), he might have gone to England, but there is not much to back such a claim.

Jeff

[curious]

Bury probably was not in the mood scant minutes before his own death to settle questions about his career with any hangman or detective.

Jeff

Now, that's an interesting thought.

I wonder how people's minds do work . . .

curious

[curious]

We do know however that Bury usually stabled his horse close to 3 Spanby Road, (whence he and Ellen moved in August 1888).

According to Beadle (P98) we get this from the statement of William Smith, his landlord, dated 14th February 1889.

All the best

Dave

Hi, Dave,
Wouldn't he use the 3 Spanby Road stable when he was home? I'd expect this to be rented by the week or month.

But what would he use when making sales calls? or whenever he was out neglecting his business, drinking in the afternoons and into the nights? where did he leave his pony and cart then?

Could the pony just have been tied along the street somewhere?

How did such things work?

curious

[Boggles]

Droy

Qualified documentary evidence?

Apologies, yes i do mean the trial notes.

most of the information we have seems to be at best third person information.

No most of the information is from the trial notes, thanks to the meticulous record keeping of the Scots. But there is of course information from secondary sources such as contemporary news reports that not be discounted out of hand either, some of them providing very interesting information.

Though like everyone else I want more, and i believe there is still more out there.

Mayerling - thanks for your very interesting reply. We should always keep an open mind of course but realistically Bury is the only suspect worth taking seriously. I find it surprising that he continues to be overlooked or lumped together with people whose connection with these murders is farcical at best, but more typically downright slanderous. But still then that's one of the charms of this interesting suspect.

[Cogidubnus]

Wouldn't he use the 3 Spanby Road stable when he was home? I'd expect this to be rented by the week or month.

But what would he use when making sales calls? or whenever he was out neglecting his business, drinking in the afternoons and into the nights? where did he leave his pony and cart then?

Could the pony just have been tied along the street somewhere?

How did such things work?

curious

Hi Velma

Of course when he was home it's most likely he used the stable near 3 Spanby Road...else why rent it?

Making business calls, I'd guess (and it's only a guess) he'd tie up as close as he could get to his customers...it'd make offloading the sawdust easier...some of the old photos on this site certainly suggest carts/horses tied up at the side of the street making deliveries...some of these premises (I'm guessing mainly pubs) might also have had yards accessible from the street...

Away from home, or out on serious drinking, I really don't know...and that's where the speculation starts!

All the best

Dave

[Boggles]

and that's where the speculation starts!

Hi Dave,
George yard buildings/George street/ the evil quarter mile sounds to me like a good bet.

Numerous stables, plenty of lodgings for travelers and lights out at 2300hrs.

A few contemporary accounts i could dig up
"...a narrow turning out of the High-street, [that] leads into a number of courts and alleys in which some of the poorest of the poor, together with thieves and roughs and prostitutes, find protection and shelter in the miserable hovels bearing the name of houses..”

" for years been a regular rendezvous and hiding place for [army] deserters."

“…one of the most dangerous streets in the locality…”

- also if your a GSG man and plot the route from Eddows to the GSG hes heading directly for it.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Will

Wherever, it'd have to be properly secure - you've only got to read the Jack London account of what happened to an unattended or insecure horse and cart to know that!

All the best

Dave

[Boggles]

come to think of it what self respecting jack the ripper wouldn't want to be hanging out in that locale,

it'd have to be properly secure

I would certainly be keeping my hand on my wallet at all times

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Will

Meaning perhaps that on "Pissitup" nights George Yard, George Street or the Evil Quarter Mile are totally out of the question unless Bury can pay for (or has prepaid for) totally secure premises and is sober enough to sort out the pony, cart, load, gear etc...

Let's be honest - Both you and I'd be far happier with that convenient mate with an available and cheap backyard...

All the best

Dave

[Boggles]

Having squandered most of his wives inheritance I can confirm he would have for sure been able to pay for private lodgings and stabling for his horse and there would be many available in this area of..

''claustrophobic mixture of lodging houses, stables and narrow courts gave it a mean reputation''

and in my opinion more likely to have taken lodgings than slept in his cart, and would have had access to these lodgings without hindrance or much chance of being stopped and detected as it was a very dark place after lights out. It was an ideal bolt hole.

But then on the other hand we do know he slept on floors in kitchens from the trial notes (and if as i recall somewhere a stable) so certainly also a possibility he did sleep in his cart, on a hot August night. good way to cover all that blood up some sawdust.

Gear you refer to horse tack? or the change of clothing and knives?

But then you mention a mate. Well we do know he was waiting for correspondence from someone in London and was disappointed not to receive it. Ellen Bury mentioned he had some mates who were causing him to stay up all night. And we know someone must have written that fake letter of employment. So we cant rule that out either for sure.

[Mayerling]

Now, that's an interesting thought.

I wonder how people's minds do work . . .

curious

Hi Curious,

I refer you to an earlier legal tragedy. In 1777 Rev. Dr. William Dodd, a popular clergyman nicknamed (due to his expensive tastes and dress) "the Macaroni Parson", was shown to have forged papers by his pupil, the son of Lord Chesterfield. Dodd thought Chesterfield would not press legal action, but was disappointed in that hope. Dodd was tried for forgery, found guilty, and condemned to death. As a result there was a massive letter writing and petition campaign to save him, that involved (among others) Dr. Samuel Johnson. Johnson was not a friend of Dodd's, but he was appalled that a clergyman might hang for forgery.

During the campaign Johnson talked about the case with his friend James Boswell, and they were discussing what Dodd's thoughts were at this time. Johnson made the classic comment that when a man is facing his imminent execution his mind becomes wonderfully concentrated for the first time.

Dodd was not pardoned, but was hanged.

Jeff

[DRoy]

Boggles,

Thank you for your reply.

I disagree that most of the info came from the trial. Maybe regarding some of Bury and his wife's murder but most of the things that are being discussed on threads like this have to do with newspaper reports which are not as reliable.

Bury was not considered a suspect because of the trial, it was the papers that suggested it. The news not the trial notes came up with the story and from there it was on.

Bury is the only suspect worth taking seriously? If all your time is spent in the Bury threads then I guess that makes sense but I do recommend expanding beyond him. You're missing out.

To reiterate, i'm not saying he's a bad choice but there are better and more likely candidates.

Cheers
DRoy