Watkins walking along his beat towards Eddowes

[Phil Carter]

The 'having a cuppa' possibility makes sense of quite a bit of the Eddowes murder. It makes sense in terms of a beat cop having a bit of warmth and sociability with a former cop and it also explains why things could have happened in Mitre Square without the beat cop being aware. And if there's a whiff of cover up, it could be just that poor cop trying to cover his butt for breaking protocol and having it backfire in the worst possible way.

Thank you Penhalion,

if that be the case. .The last part of your scenario, would there not have been consequences for Watkins? (If his seniors found out that is)

Phil

[Phil Carter]

Monty,

You have walked the Watkins beat, at the correct pace. At what point would you yourself estimate Watkins to be furthest from the Square during his beat? And did you, at that point, happen to see how long in terms of time it had taken?

As I said in my opening post..no..We cannot be totally accurate because of all manner of things. .some of which you yourself mentioned.

However, I seem to recall Watkins saying that nothing had happened all of the time he was on his beat.


Phil

[Penhalion]

There would absolutely have been consequences IF sufficiently senior officers had found out about it. However, if the 'non-regulation but never the less often done cuppa on the side' was known to his immediate seniors then if they hung him out, they would have been implicated too for allowing that breech in protocol on a regular basis. I'm only theorizing here but I come from a city with a long tradition of cops doing things they shouldn't. If the line cops and their immediate seniors closed ranks for mutual protection, then there probably weren't any direct consequences. Just some awkward answers and some slightly skewed times and actions in the report. They had no idea people would still be sifting through the details over a hundred years later. To them it was a 'one and done' at the inquest so if they got through that it should all have pretty much gone away.....except it's JtR and he never goes away.

[Monty]

Constables were permitted to have short tea breaks. They would go out on their beats with provisions in their pockets (Sandwich, or fruit (hence the use of orange peel as markers)) and either continue to carry them or leave them at an allocated point on their beat, commonly with a friendly nightwatchman.

I've come across some info regarding an experiment with tea breaks which I shant reveal here as I intend to mention it at a talk I'm giving in December, but happily shall do so after that date. Its nothing major I add.

I suspect the 1am time was a tea break. Whilst it was not deemed official, constables were encouraged to take breaks with nightwatchmen. It was a good public relation act, and enabled the PC to catch up with the nightwatchman on any matters which may be of interest, such as prostitutes loitering nearby, or suspicious persons spotted by either the PC or nightwatchman, and exchange of info as it were.

Yes, I suspect if something bad happened during one of these breaks, Watkins would have been reprimanded, however he wouldn't be punished unless he had previous, by that I mean a series of crimes occurred whilst he had his breaks. Once is bad, twice or more would indeed be neglect. Watkins record does not show this to be the case.

Monty

[Phil Carter]

Thank you both, above, for your answers.

Monty,

If you suspect that the 1am tea break was Watkins' time for a cuppa and a chat with the night watchman, as would seem fitting his testimony, in your opinion, would it last more than 15 mins?

Obviously you can see where I am leading with this. I believe he started his beat on the hour that night? (Or half hour..I am unsure)

That being the case, the start of each "round" of 15 mins or so would be, in all probability, the same place, no? In which case. If Watkins did have his cuppa and chat with Morris in Mitre Square, he stepped out into the square to start his beat..either at 01.15, 01.30 or 01.45 (ish).

And if we just move sideways to Harvey and HIS beat..We have another policeman who may..just may. .have taken HIS cuppa and chat with the same Morris.

Why do I say this? Because Morris stated that normally he sat outside between 1 and 2 every night on HIS break.
Which tells me that Harvey would always see him. Likewise Watkins.


Phil

[Monty]

Morris also states that the only night he doesn't stand outside with his pipe was Saturday night/Sunday morning, as he has other duties in the counting house, which seemed to be cleaning.

Monty

[Phil Carter]

Morris also states that the only night he doesn't stand outside with his pipe was Saturday night/Sunday morning, as he has other duties in the counting house, which seemed to be cleaning.

Monty

So..If I get this right. .The 1am cuppa and chat from Watkins would be inside anyway on Saturday nights.. (Sunday mornings)..
Can that apply to Harvey as well? (Same nights)
If so...same times?


Phil

[Phil Carter]

Monty,

Another point is the plain clothes detectives.
Now I hate assuming..as you know, so am I correct in thinking they had a free hand..relatively speaking, when compared to the beat police re. Their breaks and cuppas?

They had no regular beat as such. .just a general area. When Morris blew his whistle. .three of them were standing together in the same place.
I see nothing sinister in that by the way. I am thinking more of where they too took their cups of tea and chats with night watchmen. I wonder if Morris knew them on the same level as Watkins..and possibly Harvey?

Don't misunderstand. .not thinking of an all in tea break together..just trying to piece together the movements and comings and goings into and out of Mitre Square.


Phil

[Jeff Leahy]

Jeff, just out of curiosity, how do you know "Watkins wasn't MacNaughtens PC witness?"
John

It seems unlikely given what he says..

MacNaughten is clear that there was a City PC witness

That witness was in Mitre Street

We have a watchman saying he saw a man and woman together at Aldgate, shortly before the murder and that he returned alone..

So the PC witness was the City PC close to Aldgate or Mitre Street

Yours Jef

[Phil Carter]

Jeff,

One small, tiny detail you may..or may not, have overlooked when looking for your P.C.

Where does it state that the P.C. was a uniformed policeman?

Why can it not have been a plain clothes police constable?
Just because MM does not use the word "Detective" does not mean that he meant a uniformed officer.

So add into your calculations all the plain clothes constables on duty in the area that night too.


Phil

[Jeff Leahy]

Jeff,

One small, tiny detail you may..or may not, have overlooked when looking for your P.C.

Where does it state that the P.C. was a uniformed policeman?

Why can it not have been a plain clothes police constable?
Just because MM does not use the word "Detective" does not mean that he meant a uniformed officer.

So add into your calculations all the plain clothes constables on duty in the area that night too.


Phil

Because we don't have to reinvent or change what MacNaughten says. What he says is also expanded by Sims and Grifiths... There was a City PC witness...He only confirmed the suspects general appearance... but not a full ID

Yours Jeff

[SkipToTheEnd]

It seems unlikely given what he says..

MacNaughten is clear that there was a City PC witness

That witness was in Mitre Street

We have a watchman saying he saw a man and woman together at Aldgate, shortly before the murder and that he returned alone..

So the PC witness was the City PC close to Aldgate or Mitre Street

Yours Jef

Hi Jeff,

where can i read about the watchman seeing the man and woman together and then just the man?

Many thanks,

Skip