The Double Event

[Michael W Richards]

PC Smith estimated that he arrived back on Berner Street at 1:00am. On that basis he suggested that he saw Stride and the suspect between 12:30-12:35, i.e. because his beat took him 25-30 minutes to complete.

However, he couldn't possibly have arrived back on Berner Street at 1:00am, because Louis D didn't discover the body until after that time and PC Lamb and another officer were already in attendance, having been alerted by the club members (in fact, PC Lamb estimated that Dr Blackwell arrived about 10-12 minutes after himself, indicating that he arrived at about 1:05, although I would have thought it was later than this because before his arrival Louis has to discover the body-around 1:02-alert club members, who then exit the club and examine the body, then they have to go in search of an officer and, having found PC Lamb, he has to make his way to the club.)

PC Smith then informs us that, "I saw that the woman was dead, and I went to the police station for an ambulance, leaving the other constables in charge of the body. Dr Blackwell's assistant arrived just as I was going away."

Now, we know that Edward Johnson arrived 3 to 4 minutes before Dr Blackwell, so about 1:12 to 1:13, indicating that PC Smith had arrived shortly beforehand, say, 1:10. This would mean that the timing of the Stride sighting would be between 12:40 and 12:45 and not 12:30-13:35.

There are witnesses, including Issac Kozebrodski, who claim to have been alerted about a body in the passage around 12:40-12:45. Issac also claimed he was sent out alone to look for help shortly thereafter..by Louis.

I suppose its all in whom you rest your hopes on.

And your final statement seems to contradict Israel Schwartz....not that I'm opposed to that, there are many questionable elements to that story.

[Jon Guy]

PC Smith estimated that he arrived back on Berner Street at 1:00am. On that basis he suggested that he saw Stride and the suspect between 12:30-12:35, i.e. because his beat took him 25-30 minutes to complete.

However, he couldn't possibly have arrived back on Berner Street at 1:00am, because Louis D didn't discover the body until after that time and PC Lamb and another officer were already in attendance, having been alerted by the club members (in fact, PC Lamb estimated that Dr Blackwell arrived about 10-12 minutes after himself, indicating that he arrived at about 1:05, although I would have thought it was later than this because before his arrival Louis has to discover the body-around 1:02-alert club members, who then exit the club and examine the body, then they have to go in search of an officer and, having found PC Lamb, he has to make his way to the club.)

PC Smith then informs us that, "I saw that the woman was dead, and I went to the police station for an ambulance, leaving the other constables in charge of the body. Dr Blackwell's assistant arrived just as I was going away."

Now, we know that Edward Johnson arrived 3 to 4 minutes before Dr Blackwell, so about 1:12 to 1:13, indicating that PC Smith had arrived shortly beforehand, say, 1:10. This would mean that the timing of the Stride sighting would be between 12:40 and 12:45 and not 12:30-13:35.

So, if PC Smith was a few minutes out with his reckoning. so could Schwartz.
But obviously, to study the witnesses timings we first need to know who was using what to tell the time.
There was a clock at the bakers at the top of Berner Street and Dr Blackwell had a watch.

[Michael W Richards]

So, if PC Smith was a few minutes out with his reckoning. so could Schwartz.
But obviously, to study the witnesses timings we first need to know who was using what to tell the time.
There was a clock at the bakers at the top of Berner Street and Dr Blackwell had a watch.

Assuming everyone was off by a few minutes doesn't answer the myriad of problems reconciling one account with another Jon. And I mentioned Isaac....he was one of 2 members that were in the club when they heard about the body. One would presume a timepiece was available to them. Issac said he returned at 12:30 and about 10 minutes later he was called to the passage.

[Batman]

When considering the possibility that Liz Stride was not a Ripper victim, a large part of the argument is the two murders happening within a short time frame in such close proximity.

It is very important to note that if you walk from the scene of Stride's murder at a normal pace, at the time she was murdered, towards Mitre Square direction, that you will meet Eddowes coming out of the drunk tank and on her way towards you, well within your window of vision.

So it isn't just a short time frame, it's a Goldilocks zone if you calculate both these trajectories (directions because they obviously change course but its still calculated the same way, distance, speed and time).

[Jon Guy]

Assuming everyone was off by a few minutes doesn't answer the myriad of problems reconciling one account with another Jon. .

I haven`t had any problems reconciling the Berner Street witness timings, Michael.
It`s a matter of what sources are considered.

And I mentioned Isaac....he was one of 2 members that were in the club when they heard about the body. One would presume a timepiece was available to them. Issac said he returned at 12:30 and about 10 minutes later he was called to the passage.

Unless we have a source for a timepiece we shouldn't presume there was one.
But, what was the source for the Isaac statement ? I`m guessing it was a newspaper report, which would be cancelled out by other witness statements with stronger foundations.

[Michael W Richards]

I haven`t had any problems reconciling the Berner Street witness timings, Michael.
It`s a matter of what sources are considered.
Unless we have a source for a timepiece we shouldn't presume there was one. But, what was the source for the Isaac statement ? I`m guessing it was a newspaper report, which would be cancelled out by other witness statements with stronger foundations.

The quote from Kozebrodksi was a Daily News quote, and the interview took place about an hour after the body was discovered. Its very relevant, considering Issac's relationship with Louis and the large time discrepancy. Spooners account also places him in the passageway before 12:45. Consider again the pronouncement that her cut may have occurred as early as 12:46ish....using your time allowance for these cases, might it have been earlier...say 12:40? We have a trustworthy witness that says the streets were virtually empty between 12:30 and 12:50 aside from a young couple canoodling. We have an unknown witness make a claim about that time period later that same day. Its not used in any form at the Inquest. We have only the word of Louis Diemshitz, one of the men most responsible for the goings on at the club, addressing his discovery time, and we have 3 witnesses, 1 of which is unaffiliated with the club, claim they heard about this incident well before 1am.

[Jon Guy]

The quote from Kozebrodksi was a Daily News quote, and the interview took place about an hour after the body was discovered. Its very relevant, considering Issac's relationship with Louis and the large time discrepancy.
Spooners account also places him in the passageway before 12:45. Consider again the pronouncement that her cut may have occurred as early as 12:46ish....using your time allowance for these cases, might it have been earlier...say 12:40? We have a trustworthy witness that says the streets were virtually empty between 12:30 and 12:50 aside from a young couple canoodling. We have an unknown witness make a claim about that time period later that same day. Its not used in any form at the Inquest. We have only the word of Louis Diemshitz, one of the men most responsible for the goings on at the club, addressing his discovery time, and we have 3 witnesses, 1 of which is unaffiliated with the club, claim they heard about this incident well before 1am.

Are you seriously basing your timings on Spooner and Koz`s statements to the press, Mike ?

[Michael W Richards]

Are you seriously basing your timings on Spooner and Koz`s statements to the press, Mike ?

There were 2 club members who stated that they were alerted to a body in the passageway before 12:45am Jon, as well as Spooners estimated time. That's 3 witnesses who corroborate each other, apparently without any prior discussions with the club steward.

Where else in the Stride case do you find 3 corroborating accounts? Louis has only his word, Schwartz has only his word, and for me, its highly probable that neither are unbiased witnesses.

[Michael W Richards]

Are you seriously basing your timings on Spooner and Koz`s statements to the press, Mike ?

more simply put....Do I think its possible that Stride was killed 15-20 minutes before 1am? Yeah, I do.

[Jon Guy]

There were 2 club members who stated that they were alerted to a body in the passageway before 12:45am Jon, as well as Spooners estimated time. That's 3 witnesses who corroborate each other, apparently without any prior discussions with the club steward.

Where else in the Stride case do you find 3 corroborating accounts? Louis has only his word, Schwartz has only his word, and for me, its highly probable that neither are unbiased witnesses.

With the greatest of respect, Mike, I feel like I`m going down the rabbit hole here, so before the White Knight starts talking backwards I`ll leave you with Diemshitz`s inquest testimony, make of it what you will:

I left home about half-past eleven in the morning, and returned exactly at one o'clock on Sunday morning. I noticed the time at the baker's shop at the corner of Berner-street.

Daily Tel Oct 2nd 1888

[Jon Guy]

more simply put....Do I think its possible that Stride was killed 15-20 minutes before 1am? Yeah, I do.

That`s fair enough, Mike.
I believe Dr Blackwell testified that this could be the case.

[Joshua Rogan]

Are you seriously basing your timings on Spooner and Koz`s statements to the press, Mike ?

To be fair, Spooner's evidence was given at the inquest, whereas Kozebrodsky wasn't called as a witness (possibly because, as the interviews make clear, he spoke English imperfectly). But Spooner contradicts himself, initially saying "between half past 12 and one o'clock on Sunday morning I was standing outside the Beehive public house", later saying "The only means I had of fixing the time was by the closing of the public houses. I stood at the top of the street for about five minutes, and then 25 minutes outside the public house." He then inexplicably calculates that "I should say it was about 25 minutes to one when I first went to the yard".
But whatever time he arrived, we know it was only as a result of Kozebrodsky and Diemschutz running down Fairclough Street after having found the body. If Spooner and Koz were correct about the time then the "trustworthy witness" somehow missed all this commotion.

[Jon Guy]

But whatever time he arrived, we know it was only as a result of Kozebrodsky and Diemschutz running down Fairclough Street after having found the body.

Exactly.

[Joshua Rogan]

There were 2 club members who stated that they were alerted to a body in the passageway before 12:45am Jon, as well as Spooners estimated time. That's 3 witnesses who corroborate each other, apparently without any prior discussions with the club steward.

Where else in the Stride case do you find 3 corroborating accounts? Louis has only his word, Schwartz has only his word, and for me, its highly probable that neither are unbiased witnesses.

Can you name the second club member (I presume the first was Kozebrodsky)?

The Evening News assesses Louis as follows;

"The above is an accurate statement of what Diemschitz told our representative. Diemschitz is a Russian Jew, but he speaks English perfectly. He is a man with more intelligence than is usually to be found amongst men of his class, and in every way is a credit to the neighbourhood in which he resides. This may not seem to be a compliment; but we mean it as such, for our informant is, so far as we are able to judge, an honest, truth-speaking man, on whose evidence we feel that we are able to rely."

[Michael W Richards]

With the greatest of respect, Mike, I feel like I`m going down the rabbit hole here, so before the White Knight starts talking backwards I`ll leave you with Diemshitz`s inquest testimony, make of it what you will:

I left home about half-past eleven in the morning, and returned exactly at one o'clock on Sunday morning. I noticed the time at the baker's shop at the corner of Berner-street.

Daily Tel Oct 2nd 1888

I appreciate your wording Jon,...but I will add that Louis Diemshitz is the person onsite responsible for the club at the time of the discovery, meaning that the clubs reputation, the clubs future and the clubs present status would be far more important to him than being spot on with his timing.

If the club had been seen as possibly culpable in this murder, they would have been painted as the club that harbored Jack...as most everyone presumes is the culprit here, despite the contradictory physical evidence. They would have been closed, and Louis and his Mrs out of work. Might have damaged economically the entire Socialist presence in London at the time. Might also be why an official later erases a potentially accusatory message about Juewes/Jews/Jewes.

I believe its possible that Louis arrived earlier than he said, and he and some others took a few minutes to decide upon the best action to take based on the good of the club and the movement itself.

I'm not saying anyone attending that club that night killed her mind you, but I am saying that they would "cover their ass" regardless.