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  #111  
Old 12-17-2017, 08:37 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
I believe that this whole business about Kate knowing (or believing to know) who the Ripper was is a myth.
Agreed.

Quote:
There would have been scores of people in the neighbourhood who had theories about the Ripper's identity .......
"Everyone has become an amateur detective here, and the favourite pastime in train, in bus, and in the streets is to endeavour to find one's ideal of the unknown miscreant."
Freeman's Journal, 3 Oct. 1888.

"Everybody has a private theory of his own with regard to these crimes, and naturally I have mine.....
In the railway, on the tram, in the omnibus, at the restaurant, in the street, everybody looks at everybody else, and wonders if the other man is the Blanca Cappella Assassino."

George R. Sims, 7 Oct. 1888.

As you say, Eddowes was likely no different.
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  #112  
Old 12-18-2017, 03:47 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Originally Posted by Robert St Devil View Post
Doesn't Kelly find out about Kate's incarceration from the grapevine? A woman tells him, I think. Considering the grapevine was slower in telling him of her death, how did this woman come to know so rapidly that Kate had gone to jail? If he didn't leave his lodges that night, it's a good possibility that this woman dossed there too, knew him and told him. Could she have met Kate in the City before her arrest?

Another question. Do you think Kate sobered up too quickly during her time in jail considering that she was knockdown pist drunk? I know that there was rumour of women drinking out of a goofied flask and passing out.
He does find out from a female friend, but its interesting that he doesn't seem to be worried about where she was. For a couple alleged to have behaved much like man and wife, with habits that include spending each night together, they seem to have broken that pattern the night before her death. It also appears that John wasn't waiting for Kate to meet him that night, even after her incarceration.

To Bridewell, I agree it seems perfectly plausible that the men plying her for drinks knew of her incarceration, and likely knew she was held in a City jail...which meant she would be out at some point that night. It also seems suspicious to me at least that the closest people to Kate geographically at the time she is murdered are police. Pearce, supposedly asleep in the square, Morris the night watchman, the 3 detectives Outram, Marriot and Halse searching nearby alleys, Harvey, Watkins....that's 7 of 7 the people located at or near the site while the murder was being committed.

To Sam, theres no reason to imagine that she wouldn't have known a few bad characters before she went hopping, and her assuming one of these might be the one to be doing these killings locally isn't farfetched. And that could indicate that she knew the person, which would give credence to any claims she might make. If Kate had flogged her story Friday night, she might have been given the word back that someone would meet her the following day to discuss it...people representing the man she suspects, or the man himself. Although I see representatives more probable. She meets whomever, they ply her with free booze, she says enough to convince them she is a threat, and they arrange to meet her later with a fictional payout for her silence.

Lets face it, the story that is given about how the last 24 hours of Kate life went down is flawed and provably incorrect...the date on the pawn ticket as proof. We don't really know where she was all of Friday night....she would not have been released as early as claimed as there were chores to be done,...and we don't know why, or how economically, she finds herself very drunk at 8pm in the City. I'm attempting to sort out the wheat from the chaff and come up with something that is plausible. Considering we have one witness who says she had intentions of giving someones name to the police, there could be some answer that incorporates that information into a story for those unknown hours.
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  #113  
Old 12-18-2017, 05:09 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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"To Sam, theres no reason to imagine that she wouldn't have known a few bad characters before she went hopping"

It's important to note that we only have one source for the "I think I know him" story, and that's the East London Observer article of 13th October 1888; an article in which more than one account of various theories by local amateur sleuths also appear. Even if this story were true, there's nothing to indicate that Eddowes was any better informed than the others, or any number of such theorists (cf Wickerman's post above), and there was precious little time available to any interested parties to (a) hear about it, (b) work out whether Kate - among innumerable others - possessed any REAL knowledge, and (c) track the wandering Eddowes down.
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  #114  
Old 12-18-2017, 05:23 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
"To Sam, theres no reason to imagine that she wouldn't have known a few bad characters before she went hopping"

It's important to note that we only have one source for the "I think I know him" story, and that's the East London Observer article of 13th October 1888; an article in which more than one account of various theories by local amateur sleuths also appear. Even if this story were true, there's nothing to indicate that Eddowes was any better informed than the others, or any number of such theorists (cf Wickerman's post above), and there was precious little time available to any interested parties to (a) hear about it, (b) work out whether Kate - among innumerable others - possessed any REAL knowledge, and (c) track the wandering Eddowes down.
Sam, I think that I gave you a plausible explanation for what may have occurred had the story by the landlady been accurate. And how Kate herself might have sealed her own fate by doing so. No-one needed to track Kate down, she may have made it known on Friday night her intentions and perhaps her willingness to take a counter offer.

Conventional Motive ideas are not exhausted here Sam, there is a story that may have nothing to do with other random killings. By conventional I mean for relationship based emotions or Money. The 2 most common motives.
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  #115  
Old 01-05-2018, 02:58 AM
martin wilson martin wilson is offline
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Over at conspiracy corner it's noted that the man asking for George Lusk's address on the 15th of October had an Irish accent according to Miss Marsh.

The From Hell letter MAY have contained a reference a policeman investigating Fenian activities would have recognised.

Catch me when you can Mishter Lusk

"Harvey Duff, Can't catch me, catch the little boy/ girl under the tree."

Harvey Duff was a character from the 1873 play The Shaughran, and was a police informer who came to a bad end.

It's unclear if his appearances were accompanied by a whistle or a signature tune but the children's refrain above caught on and was whistled whenever a policeman was seen.
There are variations, and there is a discussion about these on the excellent Mudcat website.
The one I have posted is apparently the one remembered by Brendan Behan..
There is a report that six year old boy was actually arrested in 1881 for whistling it at a policeman in Dublin.

Maybe, maybe not. I thought it was interesting.
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  #116  
Old 01-05-2018, 03:54 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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It is interesting, Martin, thanks, and thanks for bringing my attention to Mudcat. However, "catch me if/when you can" is a common enough expression used by taunters of all backgrounds and nationalities, so I don't think we can pin it to that ditty about the fictional Harvey Duff.
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