DNA From Children

[Archaic]

Fish & ... Microchips

My dog has a micro-chip called an Avid Chip: 'American Veterinary Identification Device.' It was inserted under his skin when he was a puppy, and he barely felt it. If he is ever lost & picked up by any pet shelter or Animal Control agency they will scan him, look up his registered owner & then notify me & my veterinarian. If he is injured & taken to a veterinary hospital they will also scan him, & if he is ever stolen, I can use the chip to legally prove he is my dog. Most dog-owners I meet these days have their dogs chipped.

Are these pet i.d. chips popular in the UK & elsewhere?

I have often wondered if children will get these tiny chips one day. They do not involve anything like DNA information, so may be preferable in some ways- for example, a large number of kids go "missing" during parental custody disputes & the parent who takes them in an effort to circumvent a court order frequently changes their identity.

Of course, microchips would not help track criminals via the evidence left at crime scenes.

And we all know there will be those who will scream that it's 'The Mark of the Beast' being implanted, but they do that with School Vaccination Programs too!

Best regards, Archaic

[Ally]

Good questions, Ally and I don't have the answers. Like how many successful prosecutions. Or the natural disaster part. But this is how it's done these days. It's unform, it's free. It's official.

.

Well that's just it isn't? It's uniform, it's free, it's official. It's also illogical, untested, redundant, and unnecessary.

So parents who participate in a program that has no logical basis behind it on some speculation that some catastrophe might one day happen to their child are operating on a fear-based response and not using logic. Which I call hysterical, but I'll accept may just be completely irrational.

[smezenen]

The fact that you keep responding to me and not answering my questions proves that if there were any logical basis to what you posted, you would have replied. There clearly isn't.

So now you are just going to say that it's my fault you didn't answer despite the fact that I "insulted" you in one post only and you replied to that post with elaboration and answers to my questions.

I have not insulted you in any further posts and yet now suddenly you are refusing to elaborate or answer any of my questions and posting entire posts that do nothing but insult me under the "you started it" principle. But I am sure that the reason why you are suddenly not answering my very relevant questions is because of that initial post and not because you have no logical answer.

No M'am I didnt reply to any of your further posts becouse i didnt see a logical question only repeated ranting about how its not possible.
If youask a logical question i will give a logical answer. for example how in the world is it possible to test everysoldier every year? We use a 10% rule to conduct our tests. Using the last number of our social security number we test begin in january and draw one number 0-9 if the number 5 is drawn then everyone whos SSN ends with 5 is tested on during the first week of that month the number is then removed from the drawing system leaving 9 numbers. so if you have 200 people in your unit and 100 civilians assigned to you then you test 30 of them each month. That usually takes about 2 hours to collect all the samples from the military personnel becousethey are pulled out of morning formation The civilians usually filtered in thruout the day. When I enter their name into the computer data base it assignes the DNA specific tracking number that is already on file (becouse we all have already given a sample). I print out the label containing that traking number and attach it to the bottle, put it in the box and ship it to the local military lab for testing. I get the priliminary results back in 7-10 days with confirmed positive results in 14 days. How the DNA tracking number is assigned is out of my realm of experience I only know that each of the DNA indicators is assigned a number by where it falls on the chart so that you end up with a number and leter combination that would look something like a98b49f02g86k39n22i44s27 the number is much longer than this but it gives you an example. your number never changes so once its on file in the data base its easy to macth up a name and a number. This system is used in the Lab to ensure anonanimity they used to use Social security numbers until a few years ago when a lab lost a document that contained a few thousand numbers and some identity theft occured becouse of it. at any rate the protien in the urin is tested for DNA to ensure the sample came from the right person as i understand it this test only takes about 10 minutes. this policy is now the standard for military and for the government civilians that are tested by military labs. and yes the United States government has a drug testing policy for all federal agencies. call any one of them and ask if they have mandatory testing. Yes my childs DNA is on file with the FBI becouse of the program I used it being a federal program that where the data base is kept. I have my own reason for doing it that dont concern anyone else and i dont feel the need to have to explain then to anyone. If you have any more questions and can ask them in a logic manner I will try to answer them.

[Ally]

You are still missing the point. You said that ALL government agencies drug test and DNA analyze all government employees. You are wrong. They do not test ALL employees every year. Does. Not. Happen.

at any rate the protien in the urin is tested for DNA to ensure the sample came from the right person as i understand it this test only takes about 10 minutes.

Wow a DNA analysis and comparison match in under ten minutes. Y'all should be on CSI.

Yes my childs DNA is on file with the FBI becouse of the program I used it being a federal program that where the data base is kept. I have my own reason for doing it that dont concern anyone else and i dont feel the need to have to explain then to anyone.

Well you surely don't have to explain it to me but you might have to explain it to your child one day.

[Roy Corduroy]

Well that's just it isn't? It's uniform, it's free, it's official. It's also illogical, untested, redundant, and unnecessary.

So parents who participate in a program that has no logical basis behind it on some speculation that some catastrophe might one day happen to their child are operating on a fear-based response and not using logic. Which I call hysterical, but I'll accept may just be completely irrational.

I said it's uniform, that's not actually true. Different states and locales are doing different types of Child ID. The Masons are heavily involved in some areas. There are a variety of approaches, whether the blood sample we discused from Florida or fingerprints, which are favored in Illionois and Michigan.

But there is one constant in a child ID kit, an official photo of your child registered in a program, to be used in many ways, such as busting a child pornographer, of which there are many. (click)

You must prove in court who the child is. Legal rights advocates won a ruling requiring it. (click)

So if you are a parent and your child is victimized, do you want to do legal battle with pedophiles and their lawyers and advocates without your official ID kit. Well, no, of course not. That would be irrational.

But think about it, advocates for pedophiles rights having won this ruling, wouldn't it be great if they could convince parents that THEY, the parents would be irrational to sign their child up for ID?

So how many parents would buy that irrational bit? None, of course. Zero.

Roy

[Ally]

A pedophile kidnaps a child. The parents submit DNA; the ped submits DNA; the child's dNA is submitted. A card isn't going to matter diddly squat. They are still going to have to test the child, to make sure that the child matches. So it is no different to testing the child against parents, or testing against a card.

Wild, hysterical "what if a pedophile kidnaps your kid" scenarios are why I say these decisions are based on hysteria rather than logic. Because logically testing can occur without a card.

[smezenen]

You are still missing the point. You said that ALL government agencies drug test and DNA analyze all government employees. You are wrong. They do not test ALL employees every year. Does. Not. Happen.

Yes all federal government agencies drug test every employee every year or at least they are supost to. It's a Presidential Order. A simple internet search will get you the federal mandate information. to make it easy for you try starting your search with this. Executive Order 12564 and sec. 503 of Pub. L. 100-71. that order covers everyone but postal system workers who apparently fall under a few other regulations depending on their specific job for instance drivers of trucks 7 tons and larger fall under the department of transportation. I will concede the point that I do not know if all agencies are currently using the DNA screen to track the tests like the Army labs do but every federal civilian employee that works on every Base I was ever posted too is tested by that bases assigned lab because they fall under the jurisdiction of that bases commander. for example the employees and soldiers at Fort Hood are tested by the lab at Fort Hood while the ones at Fort Irwin are tested by the lab at the Loma Linda VA Hospital.

[Ally]

If you had actually read that, you would have probably seen this section:

B) the Secretary of Health and Human Services has submitted to the Congress, in writing, a detailed, agency-by-agency analysis relating to–
(i) the criteria and procedures to be applied in designating employees or positions for drug testing, including the justification for such criteria and procedures;
(ii) the position titles designated for random drug testing; and
(iii) the nature, frequency, and type of drug testing proposed to be instituted; and



Notice "criteria and procedures to be applied IN DESIGNATING EMPLOYEES OR POSITIONS for drug testing"

also...

"the position titles designated for random drug testing and

the nature and FREQUENCY proposed to be instituted.

In short, as is actual practice in ALL federal employees drug testing, they are not administered to every employee every year and there is no law, guideline or procedure that says they have to be.

[smezenen]

If you had actually read that, you would have probably seen this section:

B) the Secretary of Health and Human Services has submitted to the Congress, in writing, a detailed, agency-by-agency analysis relating to–
(i) the criteria and procedures to be applied in designating employees or positions for drug testing, including the justification for such criteria and procedures;
(ii) the position titles designated for random drug testing; and
(iii) the nature, frequency, and type of drug testing proposed to be instituted; and



Notice "criteria and procedures to be applied IN DESIGNATING EMPLOYEES OR POSITIONS for drug testing"

also...

"the position titles designated for random drug testing and

the nature and FREQUENCY proposed to be instituted.

In short, as is actual practice in ALL federal employees drug testing, they are not administered to every employee every year and there is no law, guideline or procedure that says they have to be.

yes and if you read the entire mandate you will see that the secretary is responsible for outlining the testing policy for ALL GOVERNMENT AGENCIES except the postal service which will be administered by other variouse agencies. I didnt give you the whole thing just a starting point read on, research more, that was ONLY A STARTING POINT. Im not going to cut and paste a bunch of pages of governmet regulation, i dont have the time. you can read for yourself. If you want more find it yourself. you have already decided your OPINION on the subject so no amount of proof i put forwrd will change it. now lets get this thread back on topi.

[Ally]

The reason you haven't convinced me is that you haven't provided anything in the way of proof. You've provided a link that says the exact opposite of what you claim and anecdotal evidence that's in the realm of fiction, not fact. Proof would be the manual from the FBI, CIA, NID, ACA, Administration of Disabilities, Agency on Aging, USDA, Airforce, ATF, Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco, Tax (treasury division), Bureau of the Census, Bureau of Transportation, ICE, Commerce Department and oh all five hundred other government agencies and found their policy on annual drug testing for all employees.

The reason you won't find it, is it isn't required by law or executive order. The most any of these agencies do, is random drug testing and in case of probable cause drug testing. That's it.

[smezenen]

The most any of these agencies do, is random drug testing and in case of probable cause drug testing. That's it.

prove it

[Ally]

Actually, I don't have to prove they don't do yearly drug testing. You have to prove they do, since that is what you have claimed. So prove that it is any agencies policy to provide yearly drug tests to all their employees.

But what they hay, a book on privacy and the law and it's application in federal law. You'll note the key word is RANDOM:

http://books.google.com/books?id=kMjQPJBRScYC&pg=PA161&lpg=PA161&dq=%22Harmon+v.++Thornburg%22&source=bl&ots=7escU_3AeP&sig=_bu2R_rAFMsik39t7pskIcZ1BdE&hl=en&ei=niExSsidLoTWMK2GwdIH&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#PPA160,M1

http://books.google.com/books?id=_1uZZN1E-MgC&pg=PA291&lpg=PA291&dq=DOJ+drug+testing+employees&source=bl&ots=VvOP7mp89C&sig=PUkTHHAe1Pcq0T-XmChE6rV5a9o&hl=en&ei=xB8xSuCRGoi6M7nAldsH&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3#PPA291,M1

[Ally]

Also,

""About 400,000 federal workers in testing designated positions – those who have security clearances, carry firearms, deal with public safety or national security, or are presidential appointees – are drug tested when they apply for jobs. Some are subject to random drug testing during their employment. Other federal employees are tested only if they are involved in a workplace accident or show signs of possible drug use.""

http://alcoholism.about.com/cs/work/a/blsam040409.htm

And finally the whole policy intact:

The appropriate words here again are APPLICANT and RANDOM and Reasonable suscpicion testing..

programs shall test for drugs as follows:
(1) Federal agency applicant and
random drug testing programs shall, at
a minimum, test urine specimens for
marijuana and cocaine;
(2) Federal agency applicant and
random drug testing programs may also
test urine specimens for opiates,
amphetamines, and phencyclidine;
(3) When conducting reasonable
suspicion, post accident, or unsafe
practice testing, a Federal agency may
have a urine specimen tested for any
drug listed

http://workplace.samhsa.gov/DrugTesting/Files_Drug_Testing/Federal/HHS%20Mandatory%20Guidelines%20(Effective%20November%201,%202004).pdf

[smezenen]

[QUOTE=Ally;90028]

But what they hay, a book on privacy and the law and it's application in federal law. You'll note the key word is RANDOM:


QUOTE]

so you are saying that a person can not be randomly tested every year?

[smezenen]

Ally, you assume RANDOM means they will pick a few people to test during the year but that is not the case. Everyone is tested every year, the RANDOM part comes by way of what drugs they test for (as you show in your above post) and when during the year you get tested.

We use a 10% method to test the people we are responsible for in our command or section.
The process uses the first digit of the last four digits of the social security number to deternine who is tested, for instance a social security number of 000-00-1234 would use the 1.

lets say there are 100 people in our command that means we have to test 10 or more each month.
During the first week of January we begin with the numbers 0-9 , for our example we will say the number 1 is drawn. Everyone that has the number one as the first digit of their last four is tested. but only 3 people in our command have the number 1 so another number is drawn, lets say 3 is drawn. There are 8 people in the command that have the number 3. we now have 11 people scheduled to test and have exceeded the 10% required.
Along comes Febuary and we discard the numbers 1 and 3 and draw from the remaining numbers until we have meet or exceeded 10%.

As you can see using this method you would be tested every year at RANDOM. Also using this method everyone is tested by october and becouse we test every month January thru December you can see that 20% or more of the command is actually tested twice a year.