Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Witnesses: Caroline Maxwell Alibi ? - by Wickerman 4 hours ago.
Witnesses: Caroline Maxwell Alibi ? - by Sam Flynn 6 hours ago.
Witnesses: Caroline Maxwell Alibi ? - by Wickerman 6 hours ago.
Witnesses: Caroline Maxwell Alibi ? - by Wickerman 6 hours ago.
Witnesses: What EXACTLY did Maurice Lewis say? - by Joshua Rogan 7 hours ago.
General Suspect Discussion: Favorite suspect/s? - by Herlock Sholmes 7 hours ago.

Most Popular Threads:
General Suspect Discussion: Favorite suspect/s? - (13 posts)
Witnesses: Our Charles Cross - (8 posts)
Witnesses: Caroline Maxwell Alibi ? - (8 posts)
Witnesses: What EXACTLY did Maurice Lewis say? - (1 posts)
Motive, Method and Madness: What was occuring in 1888? - (1 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > General Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 02-20-2015, 10:50 PM
Richard Patterson Richard Patterson is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Australia
Posts: 530
Default Was the Ripper choosing to kill on dates devoted to Patron Saints?

Was Jack the Ripper purposely choosing to kill on dates devoted to Patron Saints?

Those who try to seek a candidate for the Ripper look at the dates in which the murders occurred. People note the murders happed near or during weekends, for example, and assume the murderer held a job. When we look at the dates of the murders of the canonical five victims a remarkable pattern emerges. In Catholicism, most occupations had various patron saints that were considered to act as their holy ambassadors and protectors. Each saint was revered on a certain day of the year. Almost everyday in the year was protected by patron saints.

The days the patron Saints for, butchers, soldiers, midwives, and doctors, fell upon the same as the dates of the Ripper's murders. At one time or another police, doctors and the press had suspected all these occupations as belonging to the murderer because they all used knives. It is plausible that the Ripper may have chosen the dates of the murders to coincide with these Catholic patron saints believing, bizarrely, that he was ‘working’ under their blessing and therefore he was rendered innocent of any crime. The killer may have considered that by killing on these dates, without suffering the wrath of God, meant that he was kept spiritually clean even though the murders required contact with corpse as did these occupations. Here are the dates of each, and their corresponding patron saints.

August 31st.
Saint Raymund the patron of the innocent, the falsely accused and midwives.

September 8th.
Saint Adrian the patron saint of Butchers and Soldiers.

September 30th.
Saint Jerome the patron saint of Doctors.

November 9th.
Saint Theodor the patron saint of Butchers and Soldiers.

Because almost all days in the year were protected under patron saints, it could be easy to say any selection of four dates in the year would achieve these same results. It might all be a coincidence. In my research on my suspect for the Ripper murders, the Catholic Francis Thompson who studied as I priest for several years, I consulted an expert on theory and phenomena of coincidence. Ken Anderson, is a Sydney based author and journalist, who wrote the 1991 book 'Coincidences: accident or design?' and the 1993 book 'Extraordinary Coincidences'. I wrote to him asking him his opinion. Was it coincidence or design? He replied,

‘The facts you have gathered are quite substantial and do not appear to rely on chance as their basis….the fact that the murders took place on saint’s days.’

I’m interested in whether others consider this to be a pattern in the Whitechapel murders, but before you respond with, ‘It’s all just a coincidence, that could be applied to any 4 dates.’ First choose yourself 4 random dates in the year and match them with patron saints and see if they match that of the occupations that the police fingered for the Ripper murders –doctors, butchers, midwives, and soldiers, because of their possession of knives and anatomical knowledge.

In 1969, the Second Vatican Council under Pope Paul VI reorganized the Roman calendar. These changes, which came into effect on the 1st of January 1970, meant that many saint days, celebrated in the 19th century, were now confined to local cults and their significance lessoned. In some cases, saints were removed from the calendar of worship entirely, but in 1888, it was still in effect and these saints were venerated. Perhaps the killer knew of these patron saint days and was working in accordance to them. An added consideration is that the area that the murders were committed in, was before the Protestant Reformation, part of Catholic church land. If this is the case, we should be looking for a suspect who was Catholic and knowledgeable in ecclesiastical matters.
__________________
Author of

"Jack the Ripper, The Works of Francis Thompson"

http://www.francisjthompson.com/

Last edited by Richard Patterson : 02-20-2015 at 11:05 PM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 02-20-2015, 11:07 PM
Ausgirl Ausgirl is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 556
Default

What I would be looking at, if I was inclined, would be -all- of the saint's days in between those particular dates, and if there's a few saints-of-murdery-occupations-and-the-like scattered throughout, asking myself why he didn't pick one of those.

If those four dates are the ONLY ones associated with doctors, soldiers and butchers (interesting that they're paired..) and midwives, then I'd be thinking 'maybe...' there was something to it.

I couldn't help groaning loudly at this topic, the Claremont case over here gets serially cluttered by a person who's obsessed with dates, some kind of numerology and saint days. Nothing to do with topic at hand, but my eyes did bleed briefly. I think the major issue I have with this person is that they have a habit of making -everything- fit the theory and are very good at circumventing entirely anything that doesn't fit (not hard, as their theory is migraine inducing to read, I think, so no-one bothers arguing it too deeply).

Are you looking for motive for your Catholic poet?

ps, I was a fan of Ken Anderson in the 90's, got his books packed away somewhere.

Last edited by Ausgirl : 02-20-2015 at 11:09 PM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 02-20-2015, 11:53 PM
Richard Patterson Richard Patterson is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Australia
Posts: 530
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ausgirl View Post
What I would be looking at, if I was inclined, would be -all- of the saint's days in between those particular dates, and if there's a few saints-of-murdery-occupations-and-the-like scattered throughout, asking myself why he didn't pick one of those.

If those four dates are the ONLY ones associated with doctors, soldiers and butchers (interesting that they're paired..) and midwives, then I'd be thinking 'maybe...' there was something to it.

I couldn't help groaning loudly at this topic, the Claremont case over here gets serially cluttered by a person who's obsessed with dates, some kind of numerology and saint days. Nothing to do with topic at hand, but my eyes did bleed briefly. I think the major issue I have with this person is that they have a habit of making -everything- fit the theory and are very good at circumventing entirely anything that doesn't fit (not hard, as their theory is migraine inducing to read, I think, so no-one bothers arguing it too deeply).

Are you looking for motive for your Catholic poet?

ps, I was a fan of Ken Anderson in the 90's, got his books packed away somewhere.
It was when I saw Ken Anderson on a talk show, that I though of writing to him. I already have my motive for my Catholic poet, that a prostitute had rejected him.

I was inclined to look at dates of all the days of the year, between those particular dates. Here is a list of occupations and the number of other days that are protected by patron saints and their dates, other than on the dates of the murders.

Doctors. 3.
Comas, September 27. Luke the Evangelist, October 18. Pantaleon, July 27.

Butchers. 2
George, April 23 & May 6. Peter the Apostle, June 29.

Midwives 1
Pantaleon (again) July 27.

Soldiers 5
Elgius, December 1. George, April 23 (again). Ignatius of Loyola, July 31. Joan of Arc, May 30. Martin of Tours, November 11.

There are a total of 11 other days in the year whose patron saints protect the very occupations that the police thought the Ripper held.

Out of the 365 days of the year this we have 15 patron days matching these occupations. This is a 1 in 24 chance that a random day would fall on one of these occupations. The chances that four randomly chosen dates would fall under these occupations is 1 in 331,776. To put it simply the chances that this is a coincidence is more than one in a quarter of a million.
__________________
Author of

"Jack the Ripper, The Works of Francis Thompson"

http://www.francisjthompson.com/

Last edited by Richard Patterson : 02-21-2015 at 12:17 AM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 02-21-2015, 12:52 AM
GUT GUT is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: I come from a land Down Under
Posts: 7,320
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Patterson View Post
It was when I saw Ken Anderson on a talk show, that I though of writing to him. I already have my motive for my Catholic poet, that a prostitute had rejected him.

I was inclined to look at dates of all the days of the year, between those particular dates. Here is a list of occupations and the number of other days that are protected by patron saints and their dates, other than on the dates of the murders.

Doctors. 3.
Comas, September 27. Luke the Evangelist, October 18. Pantaleon, July 27.

Butchers. 2
George, April 23 & May 6. Peter the Apostle, June 29.

Midwives 1
Pantaleon (again) July 27.

Soldiers 5
Elgius, December 1. George, April 23 (again). Ignatius of Loyola, July 31. Joan of Arc, May 30. Martin of Tours, November 11.

There are a total of 11 other days in the year whose patron saints protect the very occupations that the police thought the Ripper held.

Out of the 365 days of the year this we have 15 patron days matching these occupations. This is a 1 in 24 chance that a random day would fall on one of these occupations. The chances that four randomly chosen dates would fall under these occupations is 1 in 331,776. To put it simply the chances that this is a coincidence is more than one in a quarter of a million.

You may have a point if all the patron sant days were more closely related, but your one in quarter of a million relies on accepting your conclusion that Doctors, Midwives, Butchers and Soldiers were closely enough related occupations to make them specifically chosen a conclusion that I am not persuaded is correct.

I'm not saying you are wrong just that I see those occupations as more different than similar. To me two are more about nurturing, and bringing or retaining life, Midwife and Doctor, and two about taking life, Butcher and Soldier.
__________________
G U T

There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 02-21-2015, 01:42 AM
Richard Patterson Richard Patterson is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Australia
Posts: 530
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GUT View Post
You may have a point if all the patron sant days were more closely related, but your one in quarter of a million relies on accepting your conclusion that Doctors, Midwives, Butchers and Soldiers were closely enough related occupations to make them specifically chosen a conclusion that I am not persuaded is correct.

I'm not saying you are wrong just that I see those occupations as more different than similar. To me two are more about nurturing, and bringing or retaining life, Midwife and Doctor, and two about taking life, Butcher and Soldier.
These occupations were similar in that each required skilled use of a knife and the need to handle a corpse. They were similar by the Whitechapel murder investigation, for the police suspected these for being the Ripper. They were also closely related by their usefulness. Those other occupations protected in 1888, such as cabinetmakers, innkeepers, and blacksmiths, do not have this connection. As my suspect, who wrote about the saints I have mentioned, would say in his essay ‘Renegade Poet On The Poet’, ‘Look closely into the matter, and there are no people really useful to a man, in the strict utilitarian sense, but butchers…for they feed man… and doctors and soldiers, for they help him out of it.’
__________________
Author of

"Jack the Ripper, The Works of Francis Thompson"

http://www.francisjthompson.com/
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 02-21-2015, 04:12 AM
Ausgirl Ausgirl is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 556
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Patterson View Post
It was when I saw Ken Anderson on a talk show, that I though of writing to him. I already have my motive for my Catholic poet, that a prostitute had rejected him.

I was inclined to look at dates of all the days of the year, between those particular dates. Here is a list of occupations and the number of other days that are protected by patron saints and their dates, other than on the dates of the murders.

Doctors. 3.
Comas, September 27. Luke the Evangelist, October 18. Pantaleon, July 27.

Butchers. 2
George, April 23 & May 6. Peter the Apostle, June 29.

Midwives 1
Pantaleon (again) July 27.

Soldiers 5
Elgius, December 1. George, April 23 (again). Ignatius of Loyola, July 31. Joan of Arc, May 30. Martin of Tours, November 11.

There are a total of 11 other days in the year whose patron saints protect the very occupations that the police thought the Ripper held.

Out of the 365 days of the year this we have 15 patron days matching these occupations. This is a 1 in 24 chance that a random day would fall on one of these occupations. The chances that four randomly chosen dates would fall under these occupations is 1 in 331,776. To put it simply the chances that this is a coincidence is more than one in a quarter of a million.
So you're basing this on the occupations he mentioned? But he didn't mention midwives? Are there other days, perhaps more appropriate to a killer, that didn't involve a murder?
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 02-21-2015, 04:21 AM
Harry D Harry D is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 2,163
Default

If there was some symbolic significance behind the murder dates, this might explain why the killer rushed straight from Stride to another victim on the same night, rather than laying low, and for the cool-off period between murders. Not saying I believe this for a second, but it's a thought.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 02-21-2015, 05:11 AM
Richard Patterson Richard Patterson is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Australia
Posts: 530
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ausgirl View Post
So you're basing this on the occupations he mentioned? But he didn't mention midwives? Are there other days, perhaps more appropriate to a killer, that didn't involve a murder?
1 in 331,776 chance that it is coincidence that the 4 dates for the Ripper murders fall on the dates of saints who protected the same occupation that the police thought the Ripper held. That is what I base this on - science.
__________________
Author of

"Jack the Ripper, The Works of Francis Thompson"

http://www.francisjthompson.com/

Last edited by Richard Patterson : 02-21-2015 at 05:36 AM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 02-21-2015, 06:44 AM
Hakeswill Hakeswill is offline
Cadet
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 32
Default

I'm not sure how you've got to the 1:331,776. I suspect the value of randomly selecting four specific dates would be far higher. Perhaps a friendly Bayesian statistician could enlighten us further. However, the statistical odds of picking four random dates are compounded by the fact that for the C5 events they occurred either on a weekend or bank holiday. This suggests to me that a larger factor in 'choosing' the dates would be time off work. There is also the issue of looking backwards to events and trying to retroactively assign probabilities. There are so many events I find unlikely in the series of Whitechapel crimes, yet they happened.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 02-21-2015, 07:24 AM
Richard Patterson Richard Patterson is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Australia
Posts: 530
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hakeswill View Post
I'm not sure how you've got to the 1:331,776. I suspect the value of randomly selecting four specific dates would be far higher. Perhaps a friendly Bayesian statistician could enlighten us further. However, the statistical odds of picking four random dates are compounded by the fact that for the C5 events they occurred either on a weekend or bank holiday. This suggests to me that a larger factor in 'choosing' the dates would be time off work. There is also the issue of looking backwards to events and trying to retroactively assign probabilities. There are so many events I find unlikely in the series of Whitechapel crimes, yet they happened.
Thank you for the feedback. I too would love to have a statistician look at these numbers. I'm working with fairly basic maths. When I first did the calculations I worked with the fact that 15 days in the year were protected by saints that for the suspect occupations. Two of these 15 days have the same saint repeated so we are actually left with 13 days. In this I included the 4 dates on which the murders occurred. In fairness to myself I should subtracted the 4, with 9 days left over. This would leave us with a 1 in 41 chance of the murder falling on a date other than the murders, that had a patron saint protecting the occupations sought by the police. The chances of this occurring 4 consecutive times would be 41x41x41x41=2,825,761. To sum this up. That the murders falling on saint days covering the occupations that the police suspected for the crimes is just a coincidence is almost 1 in 3 million.
__________________
Author of

"Jack the Ripper, The Works of Francis Thompson"

http://www.francisjthompson.com/
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 07:49 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.