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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Police Officials and Procedures > General Police Discussion

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  #361  
Old 02-14-2018, 06:20 PM
harry harry is offline
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The system was,if the patrol officer got there first he would leave the chalk mark,if the sergeant got there first he would rub it out.
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  #362  
Old 02-15-2018, 03:26 AM
martin wilson martin wilson is offline
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Thanks Harry.

I wonder if that was Sergeant Kirby?
PC Neil's inquest evidence mentions him.
"I had in the meantime rang the bell at Essex Wharf and asked if any disturbance had been heard. The reply was "No". Sergeant Kirby came after and he knocked"

There's something slightly puzzling about this evidence. If Neil had already asked at Essex Wharf why did Sgt Kirby knock?
Or was it simply that Kirby didn't know Neil had already asked, and thus just a simple duplication of effort?

I don't exclude the possibility that Kirby didn't believe Neil for some reason. Or just double checking. Who knows?

Anyway, my line of thinking wasn't towards erasing marks, more the opposite. Policemen with chalk in their pockets. I think you can see where I'm heading.

Cheers.
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  #363  
Old 02-16-2018, 02:32 PM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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Regards

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"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact!"
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  #364  
Old 02-16-2018, 03:32 PM
martin wilson martin wilson is offline
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Lol. It just reminded me of many experiences at work, summed up as if you want something doing, do it yourself.
I would expect a beat sergeant to know his men, so I just wondered what this evidence is saying, if anything at all, about the reliability of PC Neil and what it meant in the wider context of the events in Bucks Row.

Apologies for the GSG speculation. Wrong thread.
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  #365  
Old 02-16-2018, 03:47 PM
Bridewell Bridewell is offline
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What police officers carry changes slightly with the march of time. There is nothing unusual about police officers having chalk in their pockets though. For many years a special greasy yellow 'chalk' was used to mark the position of vehicles at road accidents prior to moving them.

There has never been a problem with officers leaving their beats provided that it was for a good and sufficient reason. As others have posted, responding to an assistance call would have been such. In fact not leaving your beat to help a colleague in urgent need of assistance would have been seen as reprehensible, then as now.
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  #366  
Old 02-17-2018, 02:08 AM
martin wilson martin wilson is offline
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Indeed. I found this initial report in the London Chronicle 29/9/98.

A Cowardly Policeman Dismissed.

A few days ago a complaint was made to a constable that a man had stolen a valuable silk scarf from the neck of a little girl in Bermondsey. The man on being pointed out was arrested, when a scene of great violence ensued. Meanwhile another constable had been sent for, but instead of assisting his comrade he allowed the struggle to proceed. Assistance was ultimately rendered by some passers by and the prisoner, who has been several times convicted and is a dangerous character, was taken into custody. The constable was so badly maltreated that he has been incapacitated from duty ever since. On Monday notice appeared in the police orders intimating that the constable had been called upon to resign for "Cowardice in failing to render assistance when called upon by another constable, who was in charge of a violent prisoner, by whom he was seriously assaulted" and further staring that the discharged constable was considered unfit for the police force.

So that's pretty clear cut. A very different example to the Bucks Row situation obviously. Or does it show there was little room for ambiguity and personal judgement?

All the best.
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  #367  
Old 02-17-2018, 06:24 PM
Callmebill Callmebill is offline
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Default Chalk

Interesting that policemen would carry chalk, especially in context with the Goulston Street graffiti message.
I understand constables could walk from their fixed point position - no more than twenty-five yards and remain in sight of the fixed point at all times.
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  #368  
Old 02-18-2018, 10:14 AM
The Station Cat The Station Cat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martin wilson View Post
Indeed. I found this initial report in the London Chronicle 29/9/98.

A Cowardly Policeman Dismissed.

A few days ago a complaint was made to a constable that a man had stolen a valuable silk scarf from the neck of a little girl in Bermondsey. The man on being pointed out was arrested, when a scene of great violence ensued. Meanwhile another constable had been sent for, but instead of assisting his comrade he allowed the struggle to proceed. Assistance was ultimately rendered by some passers by and the prisoner, who has been several times convicted and is a dangerous character, was taken into custody. The constable was so badly maltreated that he has been incapacitated from duty ever since. On Monday notice appeared in the police orders intimating that the constable had been called upon to resign for "Cowardice in failing to render assistance when called upon by another constable, who was in charge of a violent prisoner, by whom he was seriously assaulted" and further staring that the discharged constable was considered unfit for the police force.

So that's pretty clear cut. A very different example to the Bucks Row situation obviously. Or does it show there was little room for ambiguity and personal judgement?

All the best.


Thanks for sharing this Martin, very interesting!!! How did you happen across it?
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  #369  
Old 02-18-2018, 10:56 AM
martin wilson martin wilson is offline
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Hi Station Cat.

I subscribed to the British Newspaper Archive.
I'm getting a bit better at digging through it, I've found that I have to be a bit creative when it comes to the search terms, as 'Jack the Ripper' gets you the stuff that is familiar, so I have to think of what terms would appear in the article text. This appeared under 'policeman disciplined dismissed' iirc.
I don't discount incompetence, but applying filters to cut down on the numbers usually results in the original article disappearing, so at the moment I've got a load of bookmarked articles.

I'll keep plodding on, atm I'm looking through a murder in Islington in 1894, probably more relevant as it involved a woman found in the street and cross division policemen attending.

All the best.
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  #370  
Old 05-05-2018, 12:27 AM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Orsam View Post
Funnily enough, my next book (yeah, 80s pop music) contains no fewer than seven mentions of "Jack the Ripper". I kid you not. Pure coincidence actually.

But if that doesn't make you want to buy it when it comes out next year, nothing will!
As this was first mentioned in this thread, just a follow-up to say that anyone who desperately wants to read a book about Spandau Ballet and the New Romantics (which is surely everyone) can now order my new book entitled New Romantics Who Never Were: The Untold Story of Spandau Ballet.

Then you can find why it contains - by pure coincidence - so many mentions of Jack the Ripper!!!

https://www.amazon.co.uk/New-Romanti.../dp/0957091729

Only available as paperback at the moment, Kindle version to follow in due course.
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