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  #51  
Old 05-18-2018, 01:07 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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If it's in McCormick, there's a good chance it is apocryphal
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  #52  
Old 05-18-2018, 02:04 PM
cnr cnr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
If it's in McCormick, there's a good chance it is apocryphal
Gareth, that was exactly my assumption. And as far as assumptions go, I stand by it.

But to be sure, I did try to track it down to a source which predated McCormick's reference. For the life of me, I can't remember how that finished up. Suffice it to say, that the quote in my book/s cites McCormick (with disclaimer-adjective firmly affixed). That suggests, I may not have been able to trace it back any further.

However, I've always privately wondered whether McCormick might not have been picking up on some folk anecdote with that reference - giving us a window into the scuttlebutt of that moment. During the course of his lifetime and research (let's be kind and call it that), there would have been people around who were kids during the Ripper scare, or who had family members who recalled the period with some degree of immediacy. It's a possibility that such a current was McCormick's source...

The question remains, where did he come up with that tale ? I suspect the worst, but allow for the possibility that it may offer something vaguely meaningful in the broader sense.

Stephen
http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/wa...emite-1.435905

Last edited by cnr : 05-18-2018 at 02:19 PM.
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  #53  
Old 05-18-2018, 02:26 PM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
If it's in McCormick, there's a good chance it is apocryphal
Gareth, are you implying that Mr McCormick was a less than reliable source

You’ll be saying that Pedachenko wasnt the ripper next
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  #54  
Old 05-18-2018, 02:37 PM
cnr cnr is offline
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Default further to my previous post...

Whether McCormick was actually correct in attributing that quote to one of the witnesses (unlikely), recording the last breath of contemporary rumours, tapping into latter-day folk variations, or even if his imagination simply got the better of him; the point is that the association between the Nichols murder and the Jewish cemetery is an easy enough one to make.

Stephen
http://www.timesofisrael.com/were-th...mitic-frameup/
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  #55  
Old 05-18-2018, 03:55 PM
cnr cnr is offline
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...Donald McCormick, of course. Not David. Er-hmm.

Stephen
http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/wa...emite-1.435905
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  #56  
Old 05-19-2018, 02:20 AM
cnr cnr is offline
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I tend to wonder if the Jews were scapegoats for most all of the crime in the East End at the time, as most recent immigrants as a class usually are, so that if a crime is committed by a non-Jew and it remains unsolved for any length of time, eventually Jews of that certain class would be suspected by a healthy percentage of the gentile population anyway.
Thanks from bring this up Jonathan.

According to testimony before the parliamentary select committee (immigration), the Jews were at least as generally law-abiding as anyone else, and I was left with the impression that they were more or less well-regarded by the police. Specifically, by Arnold who gave evidence on two occasions, representing H Division.

The main point of contention in this regard, a relatively minor one, seems to have been to do with their propensity for loitering on the streets - which my research suggests, may have been related to residential tenancy issues. Specifically, overcrowding.

More concerning to Arnold, seemed to be those outbreaks of personal violence, which seemed common enough in the East End in those days, by the "lower order of British roughs" and directed at "the foreigners".

As to the Jews getting the blame by their neighbours for all sorts of things, that could well be true. The dynamic you refer to, is unfortunately, a bit of a universal one.

Getting the blame for 'ritual murder', on the other hand, was a very ethno-specific accusation in this instance. It's not a simple question of people complaining about the neighbourhood 'going to blazes'. Or a rise in petty theft or drunkenness - both areas which, I suspect, the local Cockneys would have been able to hold their own. We're talking about the murder-mutilation of women at a time when that libel was already widely associated with that very community.

I am aware that you've been dealing with my book for over a week, so I sincerely hope you don't feel like you've been beaten over the head with it. I'm sensitive to that possibility as I can assure you that I occasionally feel like I've been beaten over the head with it. Beaten over the head like a wrestler looking the wrong way.

Thanks for all your interest, Jonathan. Much appreciated.

Stephen
http://www.timesofisrael.com/were-th...mitic-frameup/

Last edited by cnr : 05-19-2018 at 02:30 AM.
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  #57  
Old 05-19-2018, 02:28 AM
cnr cnr is offline
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I can't recall off the top of my head what the Jewish connection to Dorset Street is but, if there was one, I'm sure Stephen will explain.
Hi Gareth, thanks for the opener.

By the time of the Kelly murder, the narrative had been well and truly established.

The luxury that afforded the killer, I propose, was to be able to ramp up the volume on the violence ie the sheer outrage that would be felt by the community. Particularly, if we are mindful of what was being printed in the 'papers (and by the Vienna correspondents, specifically) about accused Jewish butchers going around killing women, women being "frightfully mutilated" etc. during that interim between the night of the double-event and Miller's Court. See my comments on the Ritter, Tisza-Eszlar, and Leskau affairs in edition 155 of Ripperologist, 'Dear Rip' section.

At the end of the day, Dorset Street may have been an island of British Cockney high ground, but it was still in the Spitalfields/Whitechapel ghetto, and the murder was identifiable as part of an already established series.

Stephen
http://www.timesofisrael.com/were-th...mitic-frameup/
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  #58  
Old 05-19-2018, 03:14 AM
jmenges jmenges is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cnr View Post
I am aware that you've been dealing with my book for over a week, so I sincerely hope you don't feel like you've been beaten over the head with it. I'm sensitive to that possibility as I can assure you that I occasionally feel like I've been beaten over the head with it. Beaten over the head like a wrestler looking the wrong way.

Thanks for all your interest, Jonathan. Much appreciated.
No not at all. Perhaps we can get together next Saturday or Sunday morning (your time) to talk more about Hutchinson?

JM
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  #59  
Old 05-19-2018, 04:09 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cnr View Post
Whether McCormick was actually correct in attributing that quote to one of the witnesses (unlikely), recording the last breath of contemporary rumours, tapping into latter-day folk variations, or even if his imagination simply got the better of him; the point is that the association between the Nichols murder and the Jewish cemetery is an easy enough one to make.

Stephen
http://www.timesofisrael.com/were-th...mitic-frameup/
Not for all of us Stephen, i find it a stretch too far.

Steve
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  #60  
Old 05-19-2018, 08:38 AM
Varqm Varqm is offline
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Here is my view on Hotchinson, http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=10578,it was because the Kelly inquest was illegally (against the Coroners Act **) stopped.But it would be interesting to hear Stephens view on Hutch.

** On why: http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=10404

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Last edited by Varqm : 05-19-2018 at 08:47 AM.
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