Thomas Bowyer

[Chris]

Just to address one point that was raised in the discussion on jtrforums.com, Bowyer is described as a "pensioned soldier" (not specifically an Indian Army pensioner) in reports that appeared on 10 November 1888 in the Daily Telegraph and the St James's Gazette (both in the Casebook press section).

[Ben]

Continued from t'other thread:

Hi Ruby,

The Echo were clearly under the impression that Mary Cox had seen the real killer, but was mistaken as to the colour of his tache’. As far as they were concerned, the “supposed murderer” (of Kelly at least) was the Blotchy man. The inference, therefore, is that when Bowyer informed the Echo reporter about his potential ripper sighting, he described someone of a similar appearance to Blotchy. This sighting allegedly occurred “early on Friday morning”, and should not be confused with the man with the long pointy collar allegedly seen with Kelly on Wednesday night. The problem with the latter, of course, is that Bowyer stated at the inquest that he had last seen Kelly in the court on Wednesday afternoon, and no companion is mentioned.

All the best,
Ben

P.S. Sorry, Chris, I hope you don’t mind my borrowing this thread to address the Bowyer content on the “Did Astrakhan Man exist” thread, as an entirely separate discussion seems to be developing there.

[lynn cates]

Bowyer

Hello Chris. Lovely idea for a thread.

The record is from the 1871 census. Bowyer (Th chas Bowyer) is household 73. This is the Bowyer born in Surrey, as listed in Casebook.

The DOB seems to place him as a bit older--in his 60's in 1888.

Can you make out the occupation?

Sorry if this is posted elsewhere.

Cheers.
LC

[Chris]

The record is from the 1871 census. Bowyer (Th chas Bowyer) is household 73. This is the Bowyer born in Surrey, as listed in Casebook.

The DOB seems to place him as a bit older--in his 60's in 1888.

Can you make out the occupation?

I had to look at a larger version, but it's "Watch Maker Dial Painter." However, I wonder whether this is the right man, given what Garry Wroe posted on the other thread:
"I found Bowyer in the census returns without too much difficulty. He was living in one of McCarthy's Dorset Street properties, was defined as a 'servant', and was in his mid-fifties at the time of the murders."

[lynn cates]

suspects

Hello Chris. I have the same concern. This is the same chap listed in the Casebook suspects section--the one born in Surrey. Rather easy to locate.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

oops!

Hello Chris. Sorry, should have said "witnesses" not suspects. Mea culpa.

Here is the link. Note the birth city. Perhaps an emendation is in order?

http://www.casebook.org/witnesses/w/Thomas_Bowyer.html

Cheers.
LC

[Debra A]

Hi Lynn,
Just to explain, the Wiki identification of Bowyer is based on a tentative identification by Chris Scott. As Chris P says, Garry Wroe posted about his identification of Bowyer on another thread only yesterday, although this entry hasn't been re-located yet as far as I know and Garry no longer has the exact details.

[lynn cates]

satori

Hello Debs. Ah! That accounts for it. Thanks.

So the Casebook Bowyer is not our man? Pity.

There seems to be a good many Bowyers, however, in Surrey.

Cheers.
LC

[Abby Normal]

I had to look at a larger version, but it's "Watch Maker Dial Painter." However, I wonder whether this is the right man, given what Garry Wroe posted on the other thread:
"I found Bowyer in the census returns without too much difficulty. He was living in one of McCarthy's Dorset Street properties, was defined as a 'servant', and was in his mid-fifties at the time of the murders."

Why did everyone refer to him as young( I beleive we now have two independent primary sources referring to him as young)? i think the real harry Bowyer must have been a young man-possibly the aboves son?

[Chris]

What struck me about the Echo report is that it seems to read more naturally if the part about the Friday morning sighting (in bold below) is omitted. As it stands, the three o'clock visit is mentioned and explained, and then there is a digression about the sighting, apparently at a different time, and then we come back to the three o'clock visit again with a quotation from Bowyer:

"Bowyer, the young man in Mr. McCarthy's employ was out at different times up Miller's-court on the Thursday night for the purpose of getting water from a tap there - the only available supply. Indeed, Bowyer visited that spot as late - or, rather, as early - as three o'clock on the morning of the murder. This early visit to the water-tap is by no means an unfrequent thing, as Mr. McCarthy's shop, which supplies the wants of a very poor and wretched locality, whose denizens are out at all hours, late and early, does not at times close until three o'clock in the morning, while occasionally it is open all night. Early on Friday morning Bowyer saw a man, whose description tallies with that of the supposed murderer. Bowyer has, he says, described this man to Inspector Abberline and Inspector Reid. Bowyer, who is known as "Indian Harry," has travelled a great deal, and formerly lived in India. He said to an Echo reporter this morning. "The murderer couldn't have come to a worse place (for escaping) than this court. There is only this narrow entrance, and if I had known he was there when I went to the water tap at three o'clock, I reckon he wouldn't have got off."

Is it possible that the part about the sighting has been inserted from another source?

[Chris]

I think that, as Ben suggests, the statement earlier in the Echo report that "it is now thought that the witness at the inquest who spoke of the man's "carrotty" moustache was labouring under a mistake in thus describing it. His moustache is thought to be dark" - which immediately precedes the details of Bowyer's activities on Thursday-Friday night - may well be related to the claim that he had seen a man early on Friday morning.

The man that Bowyer is reported to have seen on Wednesday night is said to have had a "dark moustache." And so is a man who - according to another report, in the Daily News of 10 Nov 1888 - John McCarthy said had been seen with Kelly in the Britannia at 11 o'clock on Thursday night ("a young man with a dark moustache [who] appeared to be very respectable and well dressed"). Sugden suggests that this might have been a reference to Bowyer's reported sighting on Wednesday, but notes the discrepancy with his inquest testimony that he had last seen Kelly on Wednesday afternoon, not Wednesday night.

[Roy Corduroy]

Thank you Lynn. Is it he? Yes no maybe. The 1871 address looks like 2 Sawyer Place, St Lukes, Finsbury. That's not far from Dorset St.

[lynn cates]

age

Hello Roy. Are you teasing me? (heh-heh)

Thanks for this. In one census he seemed to have ties with more the western parts of London.

I think the biggest problem is to dovetail the age (60's) with the account of "a young man."

Cheers.
LC

[Debra A]

Hi Lynn, I think he is still a possible until Garry's identification is unearthed by someone.
Without finding a Bowyer with either a link to the army, a link to India or a link to Dorset St, Spitalfields, or McCarthy, just going by a guess at his age alone is difficult as there is nothing official to corroborate it. An army pensioner could be any age, even still in their 20s.
However, the Penny Illustrated sketch does seem to show an older man.

[lynn cates]

work

Hello Debs. Thanks.

I can see I have my work cut out--when I get off work.

Cheers.
LC