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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

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  #1  
Old 07-07-2017, 05:17 PM
Mort Belfry Mort Belfry is offline
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Default If ES were not a Ripper victim, would Jack have known about her before killing CE?

Sorry about the initialism, I couldn't fit it all into the title otherwise. Obviously for ES read Elizabeth Stride and for CE read Catherine Eddowes.

When it comes to Stride's being a Ripper victim I am completely agnostic. I accept arguments on either side of the debate. On one hand it make sense to group the victims by the signature of evisceration, but on the other it makes sense that if the Ripper didn't get to the signature evisceration on a victim he might strike again the same night.

But my question is: if we imagine a scenario where Stride is not a Ripper victim, do people think Jack the Ripper would have known about her murder before killing Eddowes? How fast would the news have travelled?

Would her death have immediately been rumoured to be a Ripper killing? Were all murders at the time? Is there time for the Ripper to have heard about Stride and then decided out of opportunism to commit a murder on the other side of town while the focus was elsewhere?

And another question of motive around timing - could it be a point of pride? I'm sure not everyone agrees which letters are genuine correspondence from the Ripper, but could if you could imagine yourself as the Ripper on that night, your deeds are already infamous, but the name of "Jack the Ripper" has been applied to your crimes by others. Maybe you'd find pleasure in that, or maybe you resent other people colouring your portrayal. Then you hear the Ripper has struck again! This time on Berner Street. You decide to indulge yourself on the other side of town, but seething, or maybe instead it's gloating, you decide to set the record straight. For the first time you're aware of the optics. If, when you kill tonight, you take a piece away and mail it in then it will prove which of the two murders that night was authentic. What doesn't occur to you at the time is that both murders will be pinned on you.

I understand the above is pure conjecture. I'm not trying to propose anything here, I'm just trying to understand the possibilities. But is this something that has been discussed?
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  #2  
Old 07-07-2017, 05:41 PM
GUT GUT is offline
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Maybe, maybe not.
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  #3  
Old 07-07-2017, 06:16 PM
DJA DJA is offline
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Perhaps if CE had not spent the night in jail,she might have been with ES and BS man.
The handbill found near CE for a Frank Carter is curious.
There was a member of the Royal Engineers by that name.
Surmise he was enlisted as muscle for a blackmail payoff.
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  #4  
Old 07-10-2017, 02:59 AM
Noodles143 Noodles143 is offline
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Interesting question. Stride was discovered at 1am, Eddowes was killed between 1.30 and 1.45. The murder scenes weren't that far apart. It's possible Jack knew about Stride's murder. He had 30 minutes from the time Stride's body was discovered to get to Mitre Square and come into contact with Eddowes. Jack would have had to find out about Stride fairly quickly though; within 10-15 minutes of her body being discovered. If he happened to be near Berner Street for a reason unrelated to Stride's killing, then he would have had the chance to find out.
Obviously I'm speculating as there's no way to know for certain. But in the right circumstances Jack could have found out about Stride prior to killing Eddowes. It's technically possible. I'd like to state for the record though that acknowledging the possibility of this happening neither proves or disproves the theory.
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Old 08-05-2017, 07:29 AM
curious curious is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mort Belfry View Post
Sorry about the initialism, I couldn't fit it all into the title otherwise. Obviously for ES read Elizabeth Stride and for CE read Catherine Eddowes.

When it comes to Stride's being a Ripper victim I am completely agnostic. I accept arguments on either side of the debate. On one hand it make sense to group the victims by the signature of evisceration, but on the other it makes sense that if the Ripper didn't get to the signature evisceration on a victim he might strike again the same night.

But my question is: if we imagine a scenario where Stride is not a Ripper victim, do people think Jack the Ripper would have known about her murder before killing Eddowes? How fast would the news have travelled?

Would her death have immediately been rumoured to be a Ripper killing? Were all murders at the time? Is there time for the Ripper to have heard about Stride and then decided out of opportunism to commit a murder on the other side of town while the focus was elsewhere?

And another question of motive around timing - could it be a point of pride? I'm sure not everyone agrees which letters are genuine correspondence from the Ripper, but could if you could imagine yourself as the Ripper on that night, your deeds are already infamous, but the name of "Jack the Ripper" has been applied to your crimes by others. Maybe you'd find pleasure in that, or maybe you resent other people colouring your portrayal. Then you hear the Ripper has struck again! This time on Berner Street. You decide to indulge yourself on the other side of town, but seething, or maybe instead it's gloating, you decide to set the record straight. For the first time you're aware of the optics. If, when you kill tonight, you take a piece away and mail it in then it will prove which of the two murders that night was authentic. What doesn't occur to you at the time is that both murders will be pinned on you.

I understand the above is pure conjecture. I'm not trying to propose anything here, I'm just trying to understand the possibilities. But is this something that has been discussed?

I have found this which reminds me of Stride, then the killing of Eddowes, the taking of her apron and the GSG:

http://listverse.com/2015/10/31/10-s...haul-truckers/

"Keith Hunter Jespersonhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0OjFb9YMmo
In 1990, the body of a murdered 23-year-old woman was discovered off the side of a highway by a bicyclist. Soon after, Laverne Pavlinac told police that she and her boyfriend, John Sosnovske, had committed the murder together. Annoyed that Pavlinac and Sosnovske were receiving media attention for the crime, the actual killer left confessions on public restroom walls across the country, signed with a smiley face. When that failed to garner attention, he began to send letters to the media with the same signature, leading the media to dub him the “Happy Face Killer.” Four years later, the killer confessed to murdering Taunja Bennett, the woman found by the bicyclist. He also led investigators to evidence that he’d scattered, and Pavlinac and Sosnovske were eventually released. It turned out that Pavlinac had made a false confession in an attempt to end her relationship with her abusive boyfriend—even if it meant serving time in prison herself."

This is the opposite of the Stride/Eddowes murder and leaving of the GSG. In this, a couple took credit for one of the SK's murders. He took to graffiti, then to actual letters to the media.

In the events of Sept. 30, 1888, Stride was killed and her murder attributed to the same man who had killed Polly Nichols and Annie Chapmen.

It isn't difficult for me to envision the killer sitting peacefully in a pub, tossing back a few pints when word comes there's been "another killing." Furious at being blamed for something he hasn't done, he strides from the pub. Perhaps along the way, he learns that "this" woman hasn't been mutilated.

Now, he's more angry. Don't they recognize his work by now? He'll show them. He continues striding along, until he leaves the swarming policeman behind and runs across Eddowes, just released from jail and still impaired.

His anger and perhaps the fact that he had been drinking for sometime before he learned of Stride's murder might account for the differences in the knifework between Nichols and Chapman and that of Eddowes. The anger might account for the quickness with which he was able to work, and the additional mutilation might be his attempt to "show them" work by the real killer.

He sliced a piece of Catherine's apron to identify his intended graffiti, a protest against being blamed for Stride's murder, and leaves the GSG, blaming the Jews of the club for Stride's murder.

Don't know. Just interesting.

curious
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Old 08-05-2017, 09:22 AM
Bridewell Bridewell is offline
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Quote:
But my question is: if we imagine a scenario where Stride is not a Ripper victim, do people think Jack the Ripper would have known about her murder before killing Eddowes? How fast would the news have travelled?
In this scenario JtR would need to be out and about in or near the killing zone in the small hours of the morning, which would suggest that he was looking to kill in any event, regardless of anything he might have heard about another murder. If he had heard of a killing on 'H' Division, it might explain a decision to move west into the City though.
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Old 08-05-2017, 12:14 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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If he had heard of a killing on 'H' Division, it might explain a decision to move west into the City though.
He might have noticed a general increase in police activity, whistles, shouts etc, without knowing exactly that a murder had occurred. They could have been responding to a riot or a street brawl, for all he'd have known.
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Old 08-07-2017, 03:34 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mort Belfry View Post
Sorry about the initialism, I couldn't fit it all into the title otherwise. Obviously for ES read Elizabeth Stride and for CE read Catherine Eddowes.

When it comes to Stride's being a Ripper victim I am completely agnostic. I accept arguments on either side of the debate. On one hand it make sense to group the victims by the signature of evisceration, but on the other it makes sense that if the Ripper didn't get to the signature evisceration on a victim he might strike again the same night.

But my question is: if we imagine a scenario where Stride is not a Ripper victim, do people think Jack the Ripper would have known about her murder before killing Eddowes? How fast would the news have travelled?

Would her death have immediately been rumoured to be a Ripper killing? Were all murders at the time? Is there time for the Ripper to have heard about Stride and then decided out of opportunism to commit a murder on the other side of town while the focus was elsewhere?

And another question of motive around timing - could it be a point of pride? I'm sure not everyone agrees which letters are genuine correspondence from the Ripper, but could if you could imagine yourself as the Ripper on that night, your deeds are already infamous, but the name of "Jack the Ripper" has been applied to your crimes by others. Maybe you'd find pleasure in that, or maybe you resent other people colouring your portrayal. Then you hear the Ripper has struck again! This time on Berner Street. You decide to indulge yourself on the other side of town, but seething, or maybe instead it's gloating, you decide to set the record straight. For the first time you're aware of the optics. If, when you kill tonight, you take a piece away and mail it in then it will prove which of the two murders that night was authentic. What doesn't occur to you at the time is that both murders will be pinned on you.

I understand the above is pure conjecture. I'm not trying to propose anything here, I'm just trying to understand the possibilities. But is this something that has been discussed?
I believe that since its possible we have quite a bit of time between the murder of Kate and the appearance of an artifact from that crime scene its possible the killer from Mitre Square heard of the earlier murder after his murder. I think he may have heard it associated with a Jewish anarchists club on Berner, and I think its also possible that he had little affection for Jews in general.

That's the reason I suspect the apron section was deliberately left with a message, both referencing Jews. If I recall correctly I believe one club member had a brother living in the Model Homes.

I also believe that the location of the cloth may have had ancillary benefit for the killer, it suggests that the killer went from Mitre Square into the East End. He may not have had a bolt hole in that direction at all.
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Old 08-09-2017, 06:11 AM
curious curious is offline
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Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
I believe that since its possible we have quite a bit of time between the murder of Kate and the appearance of an artifact from that crime scene its possible the killer from Mitre Square heard of the earlier murder after his murder. I think he may have heard it associated with a Jewish anarchists club on Berner, and I think its also possible that he had little affection for Jews in general.

That's the reason I suspect the apron section was deliberately left with a message, both referencing Jews.
If I recall correctly I believe one club member had a brother living in the Model Homes.

I also believe that the location of the cloth may have had ancillary benefit for the killer, it suggests that the killer went from Mitre Square into the East End. He may not have had a bolt hole in that direction at all.
In this case he had to take the apron piece for a reason other than the message, then decided to use it once he heard about the murder.

curious
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Old 08-09-2017, 08:27 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curious View Post
In this case he had to take the apron piece for a reason other than the message, then decided to use it once he heard about the murder.

curious
Yep, that's the premise. I believe that the apron section carried the bits he took from the scene, something that Annies killer would have been prepared for this time out. The apron was torn and cut, it was a hasty decision. Maybe he did bring a hanky to take things away, but this new development of sectioning colons might have created a mess that wasn't anticipated.
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