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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

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  #1  
Old 07-07-2017, 05:17 PM
Mort Belfry Mort Belfry is offline
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Default If ES were not a Ripper victim, would Jack have known about her before killing CE?

Sorry about the initialism, I couldn't fit it all into the title otherwise. Obviously for ES read Elizabeth Stride and for CE read Catherine Eddowes.

When it comes to Stride's being a Ripper victim I am completely agnostic. I accept arguments on either side of the debate. On one hand it make sense to group the victims by the signature of evisceration, but on the other it makes sense that if the Ripper didn't get to the signature evisceration on a victim he might strike again the same night.

But my question is: if we imagine a scenario where Stride is not a Ripper victim, do people think Jack the Ripper would have known about her murder before killing Eddowes? How fast would the news have travelled?

Would her death have immediately been rumoured to be a Ripper killing? Were all murders at the time? Is there time for the Ripper to have heard about Stride and then decided out of opportunism to commit a murder on the other side of town while the focus was elsewhere?

And another question of motive around timing - could it be a point of pride? I'm sure not everyone agrees which letters are genuine correspondence from the Ripper, but could if you could imagine yourself as the Ripper on that night, your deeds are already infamous, but the name of "Jack the Ripper" has been applied to your crimes by others. Maybe you'd find pleasure in that, or maybe you resent other people colouring your portrayal. Then you hear the Ripper has struck again! This time on Berner Street. You decide to indulge yourself on the other side of town, but seething, or maybe instead it's gloating, you decide to set the record straight. For the first time you're aware of the optics. If, when you kill tonight, you take a piece away and mail it in then it will prove which of the two murders that night was authentic. What doesn't occur to you at the time is that both murders will be pinned on you.

I understand the above is pure conjecture. I'm not trying to propose anything here, I'm just trying to understand the possibilities. But is this something that has been discussed?
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Old 07-07-2017, 05:41 PM
GUT GUT is offline
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Maybe, maybe not.
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Old 07-07-2017, 06:16 PM
DJA DJA is offline
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Perhaps if CE had not spent the night in jail,she might have been with ES and BS man.
The handbill found near CE for a Frank Carter is curious.
There was a member of the Royal Engineers by that name.
Surmise he was enlisted as muscle for a blackmail payoff.
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Old 07-10-2017, 02:59 AM
Noodles143 Noodles143 is offline
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Interesting question. Stride was discovered at 1am, Eddowes was killed between 1.30 and 1.45. The murder scenes weren't that far apart. It's possible Jack knew about Stride's murder. He had 30 minutes from the time Stride's body was discovered to get to Mitre Square and come into contact with Eddowes. Jack would have had to find out about Stride fairly quickly though; within 10-15 minutes of her body being discovered. If he happened to be near Berner Street for a reason unrelated to Stride's killing, then he would have had the chance to find out.
Obviously I'm speculating as there's no way to know for certain. But in the right circumstances Jack could have found out about Stride prior to killing Eddowes. It's technically possible. I'd like to state for the record though that acknowledging the possibility of this happening neither proves or disproves the theory.
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Old 08-11-2017, 03:40 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJA View Post
Perhaps if CE had not spent the night in jail,she might have been with ES and BS man.
The handbill found near CE for a Frank Carter is curious.
There was a member of the Royal Engineers by that name.
Surmise he was enlisted as muscle for a blackmail payoff.
That last bit strikes a chord with me anyway, whether or not you meant it facetiously or not. I think a plausible storyline exists if we consider the ex landlady's statement as accurately recounted, and if we assume because of the many discrepancies in the tale John weaves about their last 24 hours, that something was afoot...then you have a story that might place Kate in the middle of a dangerous blackmail attempt gone horribly wrong. She gets drunk that afternoon, despite having no money that we are aware of and daylight conditions restricting any solicitation had she may have considered. Though I don't see any records that suggest she solicited often...or regularly.

Her claim to the landlady reaches the ears of a person or people who believe that they are the ones she will squeal on for one or more of the previous murders, someone arranges a meeting so they can discover what she really knows, maybe she makes those arrangements Friday night, and that afternoon they ply her with alcohol to get her defenses down. She goes from the jail to an agreed meeting place for 1am, but she is late because of the jail stint, so when she meets the man with the scarf she is supposed to meet with she places a hand on his chest in relief as she tells him why she was late.

These murders have been assumed to have been without a discernable motive and therefore likely committed by someone who was mentally ill... but I suggest that an undiscovered motive is very different than motiveless.

I can see possible motives for both of the Double Event killings.
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Old 08-11-2017, 09:48 PM
DJA DJA is offline
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Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
That last bit strikes a chord with me anyway, whether or not you meant it facetiously or not. I think a plausible storyline exists if we consider the ex landlady's statement as accurately recounted, and if we assume because of the many discrepancies in the tale John weaves about their last 24 hours, that something was afoot...then you have a story that might place Kate in the middle of a dangerous blackmail attempt gone horribly wrong. She gets drunk that afternoon, despite having no money that we are aware of and daylight conditions restricting any solicitation had she may have considered. Though I don't see any records that suggest she solicited often...or regularly.

Her claim to the landlady reaches the ears of a person or people who believe that they are the ones she will squeal on for one or more of the previous murders, someone arranges a meeting so they can discover what she really knows, maybe she makes those arrangements Friday night, and that afternoon they ply her with alcohol to get her defenses down. She goes from the jail to an agreed meeting place for 1am, but she is late because of the jail stint, so when she meets the man with the scarf she is supposed to meet with she places a hand on his chest in relief as she tells him why she was late.

These murders have been assumed to have been without a discernable motive and therefore likely committed by someone who was mentally ill... but I suggest that an undiscovered motive is very different than motiveless.
I can see possible motives for both of the Double Event killings.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...00094-0102.pdf

I have mentioned victims ....... um,patients 2 and 7 previously.

The strep lives on in the intestines.
Mainly invades heart and kidneys.
My family has a history of it.

Immediately before Eddowes goes hopping,Nichols moves in next door.
Kate returns seeking a reward.

https://www.google.com.au/imgres?img...act=mrc&uact=8

Look familiar?
ES?

The other three women all lived in Dorset Street before they were killed.

Chapman had TB.

Mary Ann Kelly appears to be the "ring leader".
Local girl,which is why no one has found her in Ireland.

I picked up a strep infection in 1982.
Used to be called Neurasthenia.
Today it is often referred to as Chronic Fatigue Syndrome.
Tends to interfere with my posts.
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Old 08-12-2017, 01:50 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJA View Post
The other three women all lived in Dorset Street before they were killed.
...along with about 800 other people! Besides, Annie Chapman and Mary Kelly lived practically at opposite ends of Dorset Street, and there was a fairly substantial age-gap betwen them; nothing to suggest they'd have moved in the same circles, still less that they'd have been acquainted with one another.

The idea of Polly Nichols being acquainted with the others is even less likely. Nichols spent most of her solo adult life in Lambeth, between April 1882 and May 1888, working for a couple of months in Wandsworth, before moving to Gray's Inn Workhouse for 1st to 2nd August 1888. In other words, she could only have arrived in Whitechapel within 4 weeks of of her death at most; during that time she lived in Thrawl Street and Flower & Dean, spending what must have only been the briefest of spells in Dorset Steet itself.

Similar logical and logistical stumbling-blocks apply to the idea that Eddowes and Stride were acquainted, either with each other or the rest of the canonical victims.
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Old 08-12-2017, 04:44 AM
DJA DJA is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
...along with about 800 other people! Besides, Annie Chapman and Mary Kelly lived practically at opposite ends of Dorset Street, and there was a fairly substantial age-gap betwen them; nothing to suggest they'd have moved in the same circles, still less that they'd have been acquainted with one another.

The idea of Polly Nichols being acquainted with the others is even less likely. Nichols spent most of her solo adult life in Lambeth, between April 1882 and May 1888, working for a couple of months in Wandsworth, before moving to Gray's Inn Workhouse for 1st to 2nd August 1888. In other words, she could only have arrived in Whitechapel within 4 weeks of of her death at most; during that time she lived in Thrawl Street and Flower & Dean, spending what must have only been the briefest of spells in Dorset Steet itself.

"Mary Kelly lived at 26 and Little Paternoster.
Chapman at 30 and 35.One of those was the corner of Little Paternoster.
Stride at 38.

Nichols and Eddowes next door to each other.
Might have known each for over 20 years.

Thrawl Street was another common denominator.

These women were thrown together by their circumstances at that time.

I live in a small mountain hamlet.
Brought up in Melbourne,let's say 100 Km away,with my brother and sister.
Chap across the road hails from Geelong,50 Km away.
He shared a house in Geelong with my sister's sons.
His current landlord knew my brother well. Same classes at school.
He knows me.
Small world."

Similar logical and logistical stumbling-blocks apply to the idea that Eddowes and Stride were acquainted, either with each other or the rest of the canonical victims.
"I'm not only linking the women geographically,but also to Jack the Ripper.
Seems logical and logistical to me."
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Old 08-14-2017, 03:49 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
...along with about 800 other people! Besides, Annie Chapman and Mary Kelly lived practically at opposite ends of Dorset Street, and there was a fairly substantial age-gap betwen them; nothing to suggest they'd have moved in the same circles, still less that they'd have been acquainted with one another.

The idea of Polly Nichols being acquainted with the others is even less likely. Nichols spent most of her solo adult life in Lambeth, between April 1882 and May 1888, working for a couple of months in Wandsworth, before moving to Gray's Inn Workhouse for 1st to 2nd August 1888. In other words, she could only have arrived in Whitechapel within 4 weeks of of her death at most; during that time she lived in Thrawl Street and Flower & Dean, spending what must have only been the briefest of spells in Dorset Steet itself.

Similar logical and logistical stumbling-blocks apply to the idea that Eddowes and Stride were acquainted, either with each other or the rest of the canonical victims.
I agree with most of the above Sam, but there is a very odd coincidental feature of these murders, and that's the aliases used by Catherine Eddowes in her last 24 hours. I'm not certain why she would use aliases for one, I don't believe we have record that she was engaged in any illegal activities. That includes solicitation, if she was with John almost every night as has been stated, then the opportunities would be limited at best. So why the fake name?

The 2 names she used contain Mary Kellys full name and almost all of her address. Coincidence? Possibly. But it seems odd to me, considering that these murders, which have long been thought to be the work of one individual, would have aliases being used that might connect one victim to a subsequent victim by preexisting knowledge of each other.
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Old 08-12-2017, 05:28 AM
curious curious is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJA View Post
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...00094-0102.pdf

I have mentioned victims ....... um,patients 2 and 7 previously.

The strep lives on in the intestines.
Mainly invades heart and kidneys.
My family has a history of it.

Immediately before Eddowes goes hopping,Nichols moves in next door.
Kate returns seeking a reward.

https://www.google.com.au/imgres?img...act=mrc&uact=8

Look familiar?
ES?

The other three women all lived in Dorset Street before they were killed.

Chapman had TB.

Mary Ann Kelly appears to be the "ring leader".
Local girl,which is why no one has found her in Ireland.

I picked up a strep infection in 1982.
Used to be called Neurasthenia.
Today it is often referred to as Chronic Fatigue Syndrome.
Tends to interfere with my posts.
Very interesting. I was seeing book, Harry D, movie. Thanks for the information.

curious
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