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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Police Officials and Procedures > Macnaghten, Sir Melville

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  #1  
Old 10-27-2012, 09:43 PM
Phil Carter Phil Carter is offline
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Default "5 victims and 5 victims only"

Hello all,

This snippet from MM has me thinking. It may well have been discussed before, more than likely I'd say, but for the sake of newbies and oldbies alike..

"5 victims and 5 victims only"

Can someone kindly explain to me how MM could know this in 1894 when the case was unsolved?

In other words, why did DSS, the man in the centre of all this, write a list of more than 5 if the total was only 5?...for if the Ripper business was over between Kelly and McKenzie, as is suggested by MM, then Kosminski simply cannot have been the Ripper. Just because MM pointed towards Druitt?

If the case was unsolved in 1894, which officially, it was, how would MM know what all others didn't?

I welcome all answers.

best wishes

Phil
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Last edited by Phil Carter : 10-27-2012 at 09:51 PM.
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  #2  
Old 10-27-2012, 10:05 PM
Cogidubnus Cogidubnus is offline
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Sorry Phil, but I don't quite get what you're trying to say...it seems a bit of a circular argument, but I may be misunderstanding...

Kosminski was admitted to the workhouse second time round (from whence he was discharged to Colney Hatch) on 4th February 1891...It follows, therefore, that he couldn't be responsible for Frances Coles (13th February 1891) but as for the rest who knows?

Perhaps, after all, it was Melville who only thought he knew!

All the best

Dave
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  #3  
Old 10-27-2012, 10:35 PM
Jonathan H Jonathan H is offline
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Default Did Druitt claim these five victims?

Considering the low regard that the Druitt-Farquharson-Macnaghten theory-candidacy has on this and the other site, by many, it is ironic that the generally accepted victims of Jack the Ripper are Druitt-centric.

In my opinion, the police in 1894 -- including Swanson and Anderson -- thought that McKenzie and certainly Coles were also by Jack.

Only one, Macnaghten, secretly believed or 'thought he knew' that there was only five victims by that murderer. That the real killer had stopped 'soon after' Kelly because he had taken his own life.

This knowledge or belief -- rightly or wrongly -- came from a private investigation he had made about the deceased Druitt in about 1891. In 1913 he would speak of it as 'secret information' which 'came to him' and therefore all documentation was his private property to 'destroy' as he saw fit (which, as usual, he dissembled about).

That it was just these five victims, and no others, I argue comes originally from testimony by Druitt himself -- or so Macnaghten was told and, rightly or wrongly, he accepted this as the truth.

In 1894 Macnaghten needed to lock in the five 'canonical' murders in case the Dorset story of the surgeon's son was dislodged by the Cutbush 'scoop'. It did not and this document was mothballed.

Then starting in 1898 Macnaghten orchestrated the [anonymous] dissemination of Ripper information, via Griffiths and Sims, to inform the public -- for the first time and with a semi-official status -- that the Ripper's victims were only five, and that Jack had stopped with Kelly, and not years later with Coles.

And, astonishingly, that the police were about to arrest the maniac?!

Just imagine what Anderson's ego could do with that fictitious notion? By the time of his 1910 memoirs, the police had arrested 'Jack' (if you believe that his having the confrontation take place after he was sectioned in the magazine version was an 'error' by Anderson which he corrected in the book version).

In other words if Macnaghten was mistaken, and the killer was really say Aaron Kosminski, then why could the latter not have killed McKenzie -- or other victims -- before being sectioned a few days before the Coles murder?

In my opinion, Anderson and Swanson by 1895 through to 1910 have absorbed as literal truth the propagandist-backdated notion of the 'autumn of terror'.

Backdated in the sense that police knew at the time it was over with Kelly, in my opinion severely limiting the reliability of both these sources.

If you only had those two sources you would never know that their chief suspect was not 'safely caged' until years after Miller's Ct.

Quite the opposite for the safely caging of this suspect 'soon after' that final murder -- Kelly not Coles -- was one of the reasons they believed it was the Polish Jew because the murders had ceased, or so they arguably misremembered it all.
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  #4  
Old 10-27-2012, 10:48 PM
Phil Carter Phil Carter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cogidubnus View Post
Sorry Phil, but I don't quite get what you're trying to say...it seems a bit of a circular argument, but I may be misunderstanding...

Kosminski was admitted to the workhouse second time round (from whence he was discharged to Colney Hatch) on 4th February 1891...It follows, therefore, that he couldn't be responsible for Frances Coles (13th February 1891) but as for the rest who knows?

Perhaps, after all, it was Melville who only thought he knew!

All the best

Dave
Hello Dave,

What I am trying to get at is this.. explained poorly perhaps...

DSS had a list of more than 5 victims, McKenzie and Coles inclusive.
DSS wrote that Kosminski was the suspect. This suspect was, according to SRA, the Polish Jew. This same Jew was named Kosminski by MM.
Kosminski cannot have killed Coles, we know that. Yet Coles is on the list of DSS. Sagar said in 1905 the man was mad and locked away in an asylum.

MM stated there were 5 victims only. He disagrees with DSS.
MM favoured Druitt as more likely than Cutbush to be the Ripper, ahead of Kosminski, whom he mentioned and for the sake of argument, was "less likely"....Thereby disagreeing with DSS and SRA.

The case remained unsolved, according to others.

Now if the case was still ongoing in 1894, which it was, how could MM say there were 5 victims only if all victims after Kelly were included on the list by DSS? How did he KNOW there were 5 victims only BEFORE 1895? He cannot possibly know of who killed who after he wrote his Memorandum, for example. So how would he know JTR didnt kill anyone in 1895?

I am explaining this badly, I know... but both DSS and MM cannot both be right, because of timing of statements and sequence of events.

If MM is correct, the list of victims written by DSS is wrong. If DSS' list is wrong, then can he be reliably leant on for all else he said to be correct?
However if DSS is correct about the amount of victims, then MM must be wrong. If MM is wrong, and the Memoranda is incorrect in this crucial detail, then what more can we trust of the Memoranda?

How could MM KNOW that there were 5 victims and 5 victims only without knowing that those victims were all killed by the same man with certainty anyway? That isn't possible with what he wrote in the MM and with what we know even today. With certainty? He underlined it, did he not? MM states Kelly was the last victim. Ergo every murdered woman on DSS' list doesn't apply. How did he know this? On what basis is he dismissing McKenzie? Coles?

Yes Dave it is circular..but they can't both be correct.


best wishes

Phil
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  #5  
Old 10-27-2012, 11:01 PM
Cogidubnus Cogidubnus is offline
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Hi Phil

In short, you're right - they can't (MM and DSS) both be correct...but did someone say they had to be?

All the best

Dave
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Old 10-27-2012, 11:06 PM
Stephen Thomas Stephen Thomas is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Carter View Post

This snippet from MM has me thinking. It may well have been discussed before, more than likely I'd say, but for the sake of newbies and oldbies alike..

"5 victims and 5 victims only"

Can someone kindly explain to me how MM could know this in 1894 when the case was unsolved?

In other words, why did DSS, the man in the centre of all this, write a list of more than 5 if the total was only 5?...for if the Ripper business was over between Kelly and McKenzie, as is suggested by MM, then Kosminski simply cannot have been the Ripper. Just because MM pointed towards Druitt?

If the case was unsolved in 1894, which officially, it was, how would MM know what all others didn't?
Hi Phil

Yes, I asked the selfsame question here several years ago and got quite positive responses but the subject died a very quick death. I asked was there ever in all history an uncaught serial killer that had a finite number of victims. If JTR was never caught then how come MM in 1894 be so complacent?

And know who was or wasn't a victim?

Like you, Phil, I try to read between the lines.
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Old 10-27-2012, 11:14 PM
Phil Carter Phil Carter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cogidubnus View Post
Hi Phil

In short, you're right - they can't (MM and DSS) both be correct...but did someone say they had to be?

All the best

Dave
Hello Dave,

Well...perhaps..because these two men and their statements are two of the founding stones of Ripperological history. Arguments for Kosminski, for example, have been promarily based on these two men's writings and the SRA comments.

If one of them is wrong... the game changes totally. Take MM out of the equation by questioning the reliability of his statements for example, then the case against Druitt has disolved. Thats why "5 victims and 5 victims only" is utterly important. MM knows that whoever killed who in 1895, when the case would still be ongoing.. it isnt Jack the Ripper. He knows that Coles isnt a victim, even though she is on DSS' list as a victim. But DSS claims that he knew the certain suspect responsible, mentioned by Anderson, was called Kosminski. Take DSS' reliability out of the equation by questioning his list of victims, then HIS certainty is then in trouble, hence the reliability of the Anderson comment is devalued considerably. Thats why they can't both be right...and "5 victims only" is a key comment.

How could MM KNOW there were 5 victims only whilst the case was stillongoing?


best wishes

Phil
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  #8  
Old 10-27-2012, 11:18 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Phil.

Excuse me if I misunderstand your point, but if you check the "Ultimate" p.481, you will see a report written by Swanson and dated, 10 Sept. 1889, where he identifies a series of Whitechapel murders which began in Bucks Row and ended in Millers Court. Swanson appears to exclude McKenzie.
It would seem that Swanson had already assumed there were five murders in the series by Sept. 1889.

Regards, Jon S.
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Old 10-27-2012, 11:18 PM
Phil Carter Phil Carter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Thomas View Post
Hi Phil

Yes, I asked the selfsame question here several years ago and got quite positive responses but the subject died a very quick death. I asked was there ever in all history an uncaught serial killer that had a finite number of victims. If JTR was never caught then how come MM in 1894 be so complacent?

And know who was or wasn't a victim?

Like you, Phil, I try to read between the lines.
Hello Stephen,

Long time no chat! Hope you are well?

Thanks for the response..As you can see from my previous post, I am along the same line of thinking. Reading between the lines is indeed the name of the game. My apologies for being a little behind the times as I must have missed your postings on the matter.

best wishes

Phil
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Old 10-27-2012, 11:20 PM
Phil Carter Phil Carter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
Phil.

Excuse me if I misunderstand your point, but if you check the "Ultimate" p.481, you will see a report written by Swanson and dated, 10 Sept. 1889, where he identifies a series of Whitechapel murders which began in Bucks Row and ended in Millers Court. Swanson appears to exclude McKenzie.
It would seem that Swanson had already assumed there were five murders in the series by Sept. 1889.

Regards, Jon S.
Hello Jon,

I am referring to the copperplate one page list that I believe (I havent got a copy at hand, excuse me) that was reproduced in Scotland Yard Investigates, Evans and Rumbelow. I believe it is in the Swanson family collection.

best wishes

Phil
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