Who's talking Cobblers ? John Richardson ?

[Cogidubnus]

She had to run an errand on the way...oh yeah? and she doesn't say so? Sorry Moonbeggar but, (at least for me), it doesn't quite work!

Good try though!

Dave

[moonbegger]

She had to run an errand on the way...oh yeah? and she doesn't say so? Sorry Moonbeggar but, (at least for me), it doesn't quite work!

Good try though!

Dave

Hi Dave ,

The thing is , There are a multitude of reasons why her journey could have taken a bit longer that morning , if in fact it did . And the very fact that she knew exactly how long her, same ol, same ol journey , to work would have taken every morning , and how long it took that faithful morning .. is an indication that she didnt think it was much of an issue , or thought it worthy of an explanation . And why would she ? Im thinking that at the time of the murders, same as it is today, sensationalism won out over hard facts every time, and story's were and are distorted, bent , twisted and remoulded in order to sell newspapers , and maybe even elevate personal public standings of certain people .. witnesses !

cheers
moonbegger

[lynn cates]

one off

Hello MB. If Mrs. Long is correct on her times, then Cadosch is off.

Cheers.
LC

[curious]

"The man said, 'Will you?' and she replied, 'Yes'".


Regards, Bridewell.

Hi, Bridewell,
Of course the fella could have been asking if she would be in the same location tomorrow morning . . .

curious

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Moonbeggar

The timing discrepancies are discussed at some length here:-

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/dst-yostlong.html

I found it very helpful

Best wishes

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

Hi again Moonbeggar

In all fairness, I think this one might interest you too, being a dissertation on the discrepancies in timing not only between Cadosch and Long, but also between them, Richardson and the medical evidence:-

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rn-doubt.html

An earlier murder time than that generally accepted really does alter perceptions a little does it not?

Dave

[lynn cates]

dissertations

Hello Dave. Ah, so you had a go at the Yost and Vanderlinden dissertations? Splendid! Both are well done.

Cheers.
LC

[moonbegger]

Hi Dave ,

Thanks for the links .. Very interesting . And as for the ,

"An earlier murder time than that generally accepted really does alter perceptions a little does it not?

Abso-bloody-loutly , For one it closes the door on the theory that she may have been murdered elsewhere , and brought to the yard ! A theory that I , for one con scribed too and saw as the only viable explanation for many a year .. until i got on here and had the opportunity to dissect Richardson's , Long's , and Cadosh's statements .. i always was a firm believer that Dr Phillips TOD was medically accurate , And in fact i now believe that his evidence / statement is the only truly reliable evidence in regards to this particular murder ... Richardson is unreliable , Cadosh is vague , and Long is confused ...
here is one more thought on the Long sighting .. What if she was lying ? or put up to lie by someone else ? who wanted to point a finger at a certain class/race of people. Either way , what if she sat back later that day and thought ,, " 29 Hanbury street is on my route to work , 5.30am ( around the time the murder was believed to have happened ) is around the time i would be passing by , Why not take advantage of the fact , and paint myself into the picture ". So whatever time she left home and arrived at work that morning didn't matter if she was gonna tie it together to make her story fit. ( guess she didn't take into account that her timing issues would be under the microscope a 100 years later ) So .. was in fact Elizibeth Long the original Weir side Jack ?

cheers .
moonbegger,

[lynn cates]

foreign looking

Hello MB. Not sure why Mrs. Long would lie. Her statement, best I can tell, was that the man talking with Annie was foreign looking. I don't think race was specified.

Cheers.
LC

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

Albert Cadosch said—"It was about two minutes after half-past five as I passed Spitalfields Church."

It was about 250 yards from 27 Hanbury Street [via the corner of Wilkes Street and Church Row] to Spitalfields Church. This would have taken Cadosch around two to three minutes at a regular walking pace, which means he left his house at around 5.30 am, just as Annie Chapman and her companion were standing on Hanbury Street and Mrs Elizabeth Long/Durrell hoved onto the scene.

Wynne Baxter should have dismissed Cadosh's evidence, for if Mrs Long was right in her assertion that Chapman was alive at 5.30 am, then what Cadosch heard from his back yard ten and then five minutes earlier could not have had anything to do with her murder.

However, Wynne Baxter attempted to square the evidential circle.

Wynne Baxter: "There is some conflict in the evidence about the time at which the deceased was despatched. It is not unusual to find inaccuracy in such details, but this variation is not very great or very important. She [Chapman] was talking outside the house at half-past five when Mrs. Long passed them . . . Cadosh says it was about 5.20 when he was in the backyard of the adjoining house, and heard a voice say "No," and three or four minutes afterwards [5.23-5.24 am] a fall against the fence . . ." [my brackets]

" . . . but if he [Cadosh] is out of his reckoning but a quarter of an hour, the discrepancy in the evidence of fact vanishes, and he may be mistaken, for he admits that he did not get up till a quarter past five, and that it was after the half-hour when he passed Spitalfields clock."

All of which makes absolutely no sense given that Wynne Baxter's fixed point in Cadosch's evidence was his getting up at 5.15 am.

"But a quarter of an hour" earlier put the time of Cadosch's backyard encounter at around 5.05 am—twenty five minutes before Chapman was seen alive by Mrs Long—and "but a quarter of an hour" later put his backyard encounter at 5.35 am—three minutes after he passed Spitalfields Church.

Exeunt Dr Phillips pursued by a bear.

Regards,

Simon

[lynn cates]

Show no quarter (hour).

Hello Simon. Indeed. And that is why I prefer to cast Mrs. Long out by the quarter hour.

Cheers.
LC

[moonbegger]

Hello MB. Not sure why Mrs. Long would lie. Her statement, best I can tell, was that the man talking with Annie was foreign looking. I don't think race was specified.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn ,
i was suggesting something more along the lines of not a particular race but more a [Not one of us ] or[ Not an Englishman ] You dont think that " Dark looking " or " looked like a foreigner" would convey this message ?

moonbegger.

[lynn cates]

foreign looking

Hello MB. Quite possibly. Of course, I am intrigued by the description of "foreign looking." Wish she had been more explicit.

Cheers.
LC

[moonbegger]

Perhaps If she was ( over egging the pudding ) so to speak , a sweeping generalisation like that would have more than served its purpose .

"Wish she had been more explicit"

Yes , and also if she had mentioned how long her regular jaunt to work usually took , and why (if it did ) take longer that particular morning ..

moonbegger.

[Fleetwood Mac]

We have a doctor who estimates the time of death based on rigor mortis setting in. Though not an exact science, I feel it is a fair bet that it would take around 2 hours to set in. My understanding is that this is supported by modern views.

That's a well founded argument to suggest she died a good time earlier than 5.20.

So, the witnesses:

Richardson? surely not.

Long? didn't take much notice of a stranger; long time in identifying the body.

Personally, at this point I am underwhelmed by the time of death after 4.30 argument.

That leaves Cadosch. Now this is a better argument for the 5.20/5.30ers. Whispering, a thud against the fence in the immediate vicinity. Were it another fence in another yard, then surely he would have understood the noise to have come from farther away than 29; were it indoors, would he not have realised; how many people would have been whispering in a yard at that time.

On balance, though, I'm going with the doctor. Prefer a TOD based on what is known of rigor mortis when compared with whispers and noises.