The Sinking of the RMS Titanic and other ships.

[Adam Went]

54 years ago yesterday since the sinking of the Andrea Doria (July 26, 1956).

Cheers,
Adam.

[j.r-ahde]

Hello you all!

Just wondering;

How much we have learned since the Titanic days, besides, that there is not an unsinkable ship?!

All the best
Jukka

[Adam Went]

Jukka:

Wow, where do you want to start? lol
I guess the most important thing would be the law that there must be enough lifeboats on board for everybody, not just the amount required to pass the tests......not to call a ship "unsinkable".....to begin ice patrols to warn ships of icebergs and ice fields....to abolish the old women and children first ideas and simply save as many people as possible.

There were a lot of changes in the aftermath of the Titanic, and of course further down the track there was the development of radio communication, radar and what not......though unfortunately, radar was still not enough to save the above mentioned Andrea Doria!

Cheers,
Adam.

[Zodiac]

Hello you all!

Just wondering;

How much we have learned since the Titanic days, besides, that there is not an unsinkable ship?!

All the best
Jukka

Err... that there are downsides to the use of Hydrogen as a lift-gas for Airships?!

Oh the humanity!!!

Best wishes,

Zodiac.

[DrPL]

I've written a fair bit about the Titanic: http://www.paullee.com/titanic - I see theres been a discussion about Jamers Camron's movie. On my Titanic pages, theres a link to a visual guide to the many goofs of the movie. Hope you enjoy it!

[Mayerling]

Jukka:

Wow, where do you want to start? lol
I guess the most important thing would be the law that there must be enough lifeboats on board for everybody, not just the amount required to pass the tests......not to call a ship "unsinkable".....to begin ice patrols to warn ships of icebergs and ice fields....to abolish the old women and children first ideas and simply save as many people as possible.

There were a lot of changes in the aftermath of the Titanic, and of course further down the track there was the development of radio communication, radar and what not......though unfortunately, radar was still not enough to save the above mentioned Andrea Doria!

Cheers,
Adam.

Actually the lessons of April 14-15, 1912 were not totally learned. In 1958 the Danish - Greenland liner Hans Hedtoft was sunk WITHOUT ANY SURVIVERS by an iceberg in a crazy area known for its' iceflows that was in the chartered route to be used by the Hedtoft on its voyages (believe it or not this was it's maiden voyage too!). We know about its fate because, sadly, it was able to use wireless to send messages until it sank.

[Mayerling]

The Forces of Nature versus Unsinkability.

The news from Titanic trench is not good. A newly discovered bacteria (named by right of discovery for the ocean liner) is eating the iron metal holding the ship together. In about twenty years the only sign of the great liner will be a rusted stain on the ocean floor.

I wonder if it would be too ghoulish to actually try to raise the remains of the ship for preservation?

Jeff

[Nothing to see]

Graham:

I do agree with you that A Night To Remember is more factually accurate, and a very good film overall - despite the fact that it doesn't show the Titanic splitting in half, as Cameron's film does (excusable as obviously the ship hadn't yet been discovered in 1958 when ANTR came out.)

I'm not a huge fan of Cameron's Titanic, but it's not as bad as some make it out to be, and more importantly, James Cameron is a good person and genuinely cares about the Titanic and its people. When 96 year old last Titanic survivor Millvina Dean was struggling to meet her nursing home expenses and was starting to have to sell her autograph and Titanic memorabilia just to make ends meet, Cameron, along with others, donated tens of thousands of dollars of their own money to her to make sure she could live the rest of her life out more than comfortably. He also returned to the wreck in the early 2000's to film Ghosts Of The Abyss, a truly excellent film.

Suzi:

Wow, what a fascinating family story!

Cheers,
Adam.

If it were possible to take the actors from A Night to Remember and put them in Cameron's Titanic, dump Cameron's crap script, replace it with the truth and keep all his CGI and underwater photography, then it would be the story of the Titanic.

IMO there is one person only who can speak to the Titanic and that is Dr Robert Ballard.

[Adam Went]

Mayerling:

It's been mooted countless times in the past but unfortunately it's too late now - the ship is buried in dozens of metres of sea mud, any attempt to lift it out of that would see it crumble into pieces (and if they attempted to do it the way they showed in the film "Raise The Titanic", with a bunch of explosives around the side of the ship, i'd imagine that would have the same effect) - and then even if by some miracle they managed to get the bow section to the surface, daylight would take its immediate toll on everything. Then beyond that you'd have the problem of how you'd get it to shore, what you'd do with it once you got it there, and so on. Don't like to be the pessimist, it really is a shame that something can't be done, but....

NTS:

Agree with you about Ballard. Hope he makes some sort of appearance there for the 100th anniversary next year.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Mayerling]

Mayerling:

It's been mooted countless times in the past but unfortunately it's too late now - the ship is buried in dozens of metres of sea mud, any attempt to lift it out of that would see it crumble into pieces (and if they attempted to do it the way they showed in the film "Raise The Titanic", with a bunch of explosives around the side of the ship, i'd imagine that would have the same effect) - and then even if by some miracle they managed to get the bow section to the surface, daylight would take its immediate toll on everything. Then beyond that you'd have the problem of how you'd get it to shore, what you'd do with it once you got it there, and so on. Don't like to be the pessimist, it really is a shame that something can't be done, but....

NTS:

Agree with you about Ballard. Hope he makes some sort of appearance there for the 100th anniversary next year.

Cheers,
Adam.

Hi Adam,


I'm afraid you are right about deterioration. About 1990 there was a dreadful example of botched sea archeology (or well intentioned idiocy) in the Delaware Bay. There was a legendary wooden ship named the De Braak that had sunk two centuries earlier, and a bunch of "archeologists" decided to raise her in order to salvage her contents. I suspect they thought it would be a snap to raise a wooden sailing ship. The ship fell apart as it came to the surface. So much for that.

Occasionally something is possible. The work in finding and raising CSS Hunley from it's watery grave is fascinating - but it sank in Charleston Harbor in February 1864. Still it is nice to know the first successful war submarine was saved. Similarly the careful removal of the turret of USS Monitor from the sea floor off Cape Hattaras rescued the portion of that warship that retains historical interest and value due to the design and innovations of its creator John Ericsson.

As for the great liners - Titanic is too far out at sea (and two far down, and now has been under water for a century) to be lifted - but they did get a portion of the wall. Andrea Doria is slowly disappearing (it used to be possible to see the decks and the superstructure made of wood - this is no longer the full case. Lusitania is flattened somehow. Even Empress of Ireland (in the St. Lawrence) is an apparent twisted mess.

I guess it is a matter of luck. On the other hand, the pyrate ship Whyddah has been slowly uncovered and it's contents recovered by many sea archeologists on Cape Cod. But it ran aground in a hurricaine.

Jeff

[Adam Went]

Hey Jeff,

Very interesting about the attempt to raise the wooden boat, and very disappointing that it ended that way - though surely they should have seen it coming!

It's actually worth nothing that plans to raise the Titanic from the ocean floor have been in place as early as 1912, when it sank - some of the more rich and prominent survivors were annoyed that their valuables had gone to the bottom with the ship, and so they wanted to look into whether it was possible to travel down and have them retrieved. Of course, 1912 technology didn't allow it and by 1985, any valuables worth retrieving in 1912 were not in such great shape.

With the Lusitania, divers actually first went down to it in the 1930's and claimed that it was laying on its PORT side - poor lighting and visibility being the culprit there, but you're right, that's in a shocking state - it's been essentially turned into a pancake and is covered with fishing nets and debris, being so close to the Irish coast. The fact that it ploughed into the ocean floor whilst still moving during the sinking process may not have helped the appearance of the interior.

Sad to hear Andrea Doria is going the same way too. In many ways it's lucky that the Britannic is still in such surprisingly good shape!

Hopefully something special can be done for the Titanic for the 100th anniversary in a year from now....

Cheers,
Adam.

[Errata]

As a rule I'm against raising ships except as a possible way of rescuing survivors, which clearly was not possible with any of the famous wrecks. I agree with Dr. Ballard. These are grave sites, and they are not to be disturbed anymore than we would want someone excavating Arlington for valuables.

However there is one sunken ship that I think does need to be disturbed, and that is the Arizona. I understand the legends surrounding the oil leaks, and I am not immune to them, but it needs to be stopped. They need to drain the oil. The need to do it in the least invasive way possible, but they need to do it.

[Mayerling]

Hey Jeff,

Very interesting about the attempt to raise the wooden boat, and very disappointing that it ended that way - though surely they should have seen it coming!

It's actually worth nothing that plans to raise the Titanic from the ocean floor have been in place as early as 1912, when it sank - some of the more rich and prominent survivors were annoyed that their valuables had gone to the bottom with the ship, and so they wanted to look into whether it was possible to travel down and have them retrieved. Of course, 1912 technology didn't allow it and by 1985, any valuables worth retrieving in 1912 were not in such great shape.

With the Lusitania, divers actually first went down to it in the 1930's and claimed that it was laying on its PORT side - poor lighting and visibility being the culprit there, but you're right, that's in a shocking state - it's been essentially turned into a pancake and is covered with fishing nets and debris, being so close to the Irish coast. The fact that it ploughed into the ocean floor whilst still moving during the sinking process may not have helped the appearance of the interior.

Sad to hear Andrea Doria is going the same way too. In many ways it's lucky that the Britannic is still in such surprisingly good shape!

Hopefully something special can be done for the Titanic for the 100th anniversary in a year from now....

Cheers,
Adam.

Hi Adam,

I think that the issue deals with underwater currents, saline conditions, depth, physical situation as to nearest land, and other features. Britannic, which is near the Aegean Isle of Cos (I think) is in the same depth of water that Lusitania is, but the underwater currents off the Old Head of Kinsale are possibly offshoots of the gulf steam and are stronger than those in the Western Meditteranean. So the Lusitania gets gradually flattened while the Britannic is relatively unscathed.

It helps to be near a or in a harbor when you sink. See my comment about the Hunley, but it was also true about the remains of Mary Rose, and the Vasa. There are other wrecks in the waters around Charleston that might be considered for salvage and restoration. The ironclad Keokuk was turned (in a description in 1863) into a collander during an battle in the harbor, and sank near it's pier. And at Mobile Bay the monitor Tecumseh was sunk in the 1864 battle (hence Farragut's comment: "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!" (Tecumseh had been sunk by a Confederate mine, or "torpedo"). It is so close to shore there have been raids by divers seeking souveniers from Tecumseh's wreck.

Another problem is where to put these ships if raised. Cutty Sark (admittedly not a wreck - though a fire victim recently) was turned into a museum. Great Eastern went to scrap unfortunately, but the earlier Great Western was returned to Britain and is being rebuilt.

Jeff

[Adam Went]

Hey all,

Errata:

Agree with you. I think James Cameron did a brilliant job of showing us in Ghosts Of The Abyss what Titanic looks like both internally and externally now, most of the areas that can be accessed have now been accessed - if the same could be done for other ships, would there be any need to even consider the possibility of expending so much technology and money on even attempting to raise them and risk destroying the sites altogether? Unfortunately some are in it just for the money and notoriety, however.

Jeff:

You're right that the water where Lusitania is is certainly much more volatile than that at the Britannic site. I remember hearing once that they were taking guided diving tours down to the Britannic as something of a tourist attraction - don't think they'd be attempting that with the "Lusy" though! I think the island you're thinking of might be Kea - Captain Bartlett tried desperately to beach the Britannic there after the mine/torpedo struck (probably a mine), but didn't make it and of course it just made the flooding process faster. In the end they were extremely lucky to get away with just 30 odd casualties. Captain Turner of the Lusitania also tried to do the same thing, and we all know what happened there - it's almost inconceivable that a 32,000 ton, 700+ foot leviathan like that could be sunk in under 20 minutes.

No doubt you've heard the story of George Henderson, the young lad who was picknicking with his family at the Old Head of Kinsale while the Lusitania was sinking?

Wonder how the wreck of the Morro Castle is these days? Don't hear much of that anymore.

Anyway, good discussion. It's nice to see there's at least some other maritime enthusiasts around here as well.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Mayerling]

Hey all,

Errata:

Agree with you. I think James Cameron did a brilliant job of showing us in Ghosts Of The Abyss what Titanic looks like both internally and externally now, most of the areas that can be accessed have now been accessed - if the same could be done for other ships, would there be any need to even consider the possibility of expending so much technology and money on even attempting to raise them and risk destroying the sites altogether? Unfortunately some are in it just for the money and notoriety, however.

Jeff:

You're right that the water where Lusitania is is certainly much more volatile than that at the Britannic site. I remember hearing once that they were taking guided diving tours down to the Britannic as something of a tourist attraction - don't think they'd be attempting that with the "Lusy" though! I think the island you're thinking of might be Kea - Captain Bartlett tried desperately to beach the Britannic there after the mine/torpedo struck (probably a mine), but didn't make it and of course it just made the flooding process faster. In the end they were extremely lucky to get away with just 30 odd casualties. Captain Turner of the Lusitania also tried to do the same thing, and we all know what happened there - it's almost inconceivable that a 32,000 ton, 700+ foot leviathan like that could be sunk in under 20 minutes.

No doubt you've heard the story of George Henderson, the young lad who was picknicking with his family at the Old Head of Kinsale while the Lusitania was sinking?

Wonder how the wreck of the Morro Castle is these days? Don't hear much of that anymore.

Anyway, good discussion. It's nice to see there's at least some other maritime enthusiasts around here as well.

Cheers,
Adam.

Hi Adam,

Thanks for noting my interest (and Errata's), regarding ships and shipwrecks.
Long before my interest in crime and Whitechapel, I was fascinated by ships and the Titanic in particular.

I think the wreck of the burned up Morro Castle was scrapped after 1934.

The speed of the wreck of the "Lusy" is amazing. The torpedo may have set off coal dust, and lower deck portholes were prematurely opened (the same may have happened to the Britannic in 1916 too). Ballard was able to show that there was no secret hoard of cannon ammunition (just a small consignment of rifle ammunition) on the ship. Also Schweger only used one torpedo, and was amazed by the confusion on board the vessel and the speed of the sinking.

I did not know of the boy on that picnic.

Best wishes,

Jeff