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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Scene of the Crimes

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  #11  
Old 01-13-2018, 05:38 AM
ChrisGeorge ChrisGeorge is offline
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Quote:
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Hi Chris,

Is that so? My old mum was born in Princes (by then Swedenborg) Square.

Gary
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Originally Posted by ChrisGeorge View Post
No and yes. I believe I am correct in saying that although the club closed, it relocated, and lived on into the 20th Century. I believe later they were near the Swedish Church in Princes Square.

Chris
Hi Gary

There was an existing Socialist club at 23 Princes Square and I believe the people from Berner Street published the Arbeiter Frainte out of there after they left their earlier premises. See the following excerpt from The Commonweal of June 1888 which shows Socialist activity in London that summer. Note the notice in the right column that advertises a show taking place at the Princes Square club and that also mentions the Berner Street club. According to the Casebook Wiki, "After being evicted from the [Berner Street] premises in 1892, the club settled with several temporary bases until 1906 when it settled in Jubilee Street, Whitechapel."

Cheers

Chris

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  #12  
Old 01-13-2018, 06:08 AM
Debra A Debra A is offline
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Hmmmhhh, Debs...
I believe that you must have ESP. That or great minds eventually! think-alike. Renouard's rendition of the children reprinted in The Graphic is jolly; however, the men with glaring eyes still betray fright.
Robert, just looking back in the archives, every time the sketch with the women and children gets brought up I mention that it was an agreed payback from Renouard for being allowed access to the club on a Friday night. He promised to return to the club the morning after to sketch the members' families.
I used to have a source...it's been that long that I don't have it anymore, but it is out there.... somewhere!
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  #13  
Old 01-13-2018, 06:37 AM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisGeorge View Post
Hi Gary

There was an existing Socialist club at 23 Princes Square and I believe the people from Berner Street published the Arbeiter Frainte out of there after they left their earlier premises. See the following excerpt from The Commonweal of June 1888 which shows Socialist activity in London that summer. Note the notice in the right column that advertises a show taking place at the Princes Square club and that also mentions the Berner Street club. According to the Casebook Wiki, "After being evicted from the [Berner Street] premises in 1892, the club settled with several temporary bases until 1906 when it settled in Jubilee Street, Whitechapel."

Cheers

Chris


Thanks, Chris!
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  #14  
Old 01-13-2018, 06:46 AM
Robert St Devil Robert St Devil is offline
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Hi Chris

I just read that Nupkins Awakened is a play by William Morris (who is mentioned in your newspaper posting as writing the preface for The Principles of Socialism Made Plain) and that he would speak at the IWEC, Berner Street. Any chance his play was showing the night of Elizabeth's murder (considering it was playing in June 1888)?
MrBarnett's insightful! post paints a scene of the club also serving as a "casino". Once the ladies had been escorted home that September night, after the show had ended, do you think the men broke out the cards and started gambling?
(Being stateside, social clubs remind me of the mafia.)
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  #15  
Old 01-13-2018, 09:16 AM
Robert St Devil Robert St Devil is offline
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Historical feng-shui took a knock, Debs; and, I can't have the staircase in the middle of the building as I had thought. The thesis mentions that a wall was knocked down to make one large hall. My thoughts, this reconstruction was done on the first-floor rooms; and, I believe it is illustrated in Renouard's rendition, with the man standing under the arch of the opening between rooms. The room aft appears to be utilized as the stage, with the piano; and, the room in the foreground must be the audience-hall (my suspicions put this room nearer to the front of the building, above Berner Street). To me, it looks like there is a door at the back of the stage-room, and possibly leads out onto the landing to the staircase at the back of the house.

The three drawings of Renouard's that I saw were mostly subject-based, and don't fill-in many details on the inside of the building (ie. Chinese lanterns, photos of Marx). The inclusion of children in the illustrations does seem staged to present the club as orientated towards the family.
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  #16  
Old 01-13-2018, 12:38 PM
Hunter Hunter is online now
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Thanks for posting the link, Robert.

This analysis of these socialist/anarchist clubs based on their architecture and the aesthetics of their interiors is intriguing, but one ponders if this 'aesthetic banality' was born more out of necessity than some symbolic meaning referencing a repudiation of opulence. That certain journalists and others make note of these conditions, they still appear to be offered disparagingly rather than a mere descriptive observation.


Quote:
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...
The dcor may be scant but I was surprised to see how normal-looking the club appears, with members of the opposite sex and kiddies in fancy hats on hand for a show... So possibly not the vipers' nest of radicals as often implied!

I have a feeling in any case that the club took on a more radical and anarchist bent after 1888, and particularly heading into the 20th century, and that the place might have been more milquetoast in the era of the Ripper crimes. Robert, do you or others perhaps have that impression, too?
Indeed it did, and by 1892, when the building was apparently about to be condemned, attendance had fallen off sharply as a result of the riff.

" The presence of Marx and Lasalle’s portraits alongside Proudhon’s at the Berner Street may have been a hangover of that club’s earlier days as a more ideologcally inclusive venue – a compromise between its socialist and anarchist adherents – whereas the emphasis on executed terrorists like Ravachol and O’Donnell at the Autonomie suggests less conciliatory motivations combining provocation with martyrology. Further explanation might be found in anarchism’s historical immaturity, which, in its anarcho-communist formulation had only recently emerged from the fallout of the Paris Commune a decade earlier (anarchism in general had a longer pedigree, but even this only dated, at least in Europe, to the 1840s)."
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  #17  
Old 01-13-2018, 12:54 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Prospective Customer: Is this the Nihilist Club?

Doorman: No.
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  #18  
Old 01-13-2018, 02:28 PM
Debra A Debra A is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert St Devil View Post
Historical feng-shui took a knock, Debs; and, I can't have the staircase in the middle of the building as I had thought. The thesis mentions that a wall was knocked down to make one large hall. My thoughts, this reconstruction was done on the first-floor rooms; and, I believe it is illustrated in Renouard's rendition, with the man standing under the arch of the opening between rooms. The room aft appears to be utilized as the stage, with the piano; and, the room in the foreground must be the audience-hall (my suspicions put this room nearer to the front of the building, above Berner Street). To me, it looks like there is a door at the back of the stage-room, and possibly leads out onto the landing to the staircase at the back of the house.

The three drawings of Renouard's that I saw were mostly subject-based, and don't fill-in many details on the inside of the building (ie. Chinese lanterns, photos of Marx). The inclusion of children in the illustrations does seem staged to present the club as orientated towards the family.
Genius!
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  #19  
Old 01-13-2018, 06:26 PM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is offline
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Originally Posted by MrBarnett View Post
It was 'a regular hell', apparently, in 1887:

Attachment 18419
Wow! Does that really say that Louis D (if he was caretaker in 1887) had 5 kids living at the club?
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  #20  
Old 01-14-2018, 10:05 AM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
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Wow! Does that really say that Louis D (if he was caretaker in 1887) had 5 kids living at the club?
That's what it says. Charles Booth, the poverty map man, carried out an economic survey of St George in the East in 1887. The really irritating thing is that no names are mentioned. Whoever was the caretaker of the club in 1887 apparently had 5 children at the time.
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