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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Doctors and Coroners

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  #41  
Old 12-13-2017, 01:45 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJA View Post
Got rather confused as to which victim was being discussed.

The descending colon taken out of Eddowes would have been cut when extracting the kidney.
Most probably (and/or the uterus).
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  #42  
Old 12-13-2017, 05:04 AM
Jon Guy Jon Guy is offline
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Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
Unfortunately, I don't think the other case reports are detailed enough to conclude that this was unique to Eddowes, only that it was uniquely mentioned (and illustrated).
Hi JR

I believe both Nichols and McKenzie had a similarly long gash as Eddowes, although not quite as central to the body as in Eddowes case
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  #43  
Old 12-13-2017, 05:18 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is offline
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Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
Not something someone skilled enough to create the impression he had medical grade surgical skills would likely do...as was assumed of Annies killer.
Er....that's exactly what Annie's killer DID do - Inquest, Dr Phillips, Echo 19th Sept;
"The large intestine remained in situ, but cut through with a keen incision transversely"

Quote:
The premise that they were looking for a surgically trained man lasted for the first few weeks after Annies murder.
Due mostly to Baxter and his theory. I believe Phillips only ever suggested some knowledge of anatomy, not necessarily human, rather than surgical skill - Echo, same issue;
"Dr. G.B. Phillips, the divisional surgeon, has had another consultation with the police authorities respecting certain theories advanced. There are three points upon which there is agreement - that Annie Chapman was lying dead in the yard at 29 Hanbury street, when John Richardson sat on the steps to cut a piece of leather from his boot, his failure to notice the deceased being explained by the fact that the yard door, when opened, obstructed his view; that the poor creature was murdered in the yard, and not in a house, as had been at one time suggested; and that the person who committed the deed was a man with some knowledge of human or animal anatomy."


Quote:
And the quote that " there were no meaningless cuts" should address the idea that there were any Josh.
Meaningless does not equate to unnecessary.
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  #44  
Old 12-13-2017, 06:28 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is offline
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I believe both Nichols and McKenzie had a similarly long gash as Eddowes, although not quite as central to the body as in Eddowes case
Thanks Jon,
Llewellyn's autopsy comments on Nichols' wounds I find confusing and somewhat contradictory, not even mentioning a central wound. But most of the papers agree (seemingly independently) that one wound went from vagina to breastbone. Sadly no reports I am aware of mention whether this wound went around, through or anywhere near the navel, but it sounds pretty central to me.
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  #45  
Old 12-13-2017, 06:48 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is offline
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The cut colon segment was from the descending colon on the left of the body. The intestines smeared over with faecal matter were the small intestines which had been pulled out of the body prior to the organs being removed.
I think it included the descending colon, but as that is probably less than a foot long, also included other parts. We know one cut was at or near the Sigmoid Flexure (adjacent to the uterus), two feet from there would be about the centre of the Transverse Colon, which is directly behind the abdominal wall at this point. We know the pancreas (more or less behind the TC) sustained a cut at "the left side of the spinal column" so it's certainly possible that this was collateral from the TC cut, but whether this was deliberate or was itself collateral from the abdominal incisions (as were the stabs to the liver) is debatable. However, Robert's point that the small intestines were smeared with fecal matter does suggest that the TC was at least nicked before they were removed (unless the smearing was deliberate, which seems less likely to me).

So I think the cutting out of the colon section is consistent with both accidental damage and deliberate removal. But at this remove in time, only the killer can say which.
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  #46  
Old 12-13-2017, 06:54 AM
Jon Guy Jon Guy is offline
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Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
Thanks Jon,
Llewellyn's autopsy comments on Nichols' wounds I find confusing and somewhat contradictory, not even mentioning a central wound. But most of the papers agree (seemingly independently) that one wound went from vagina to breastbone. Sadly no reports I am aware of mention whether this wound went around, through or anywhere near the navel, but it sounds pretty central to me.
Hi JR

In case you haven`t read it, I recommend Tom Wescott`s dissertation, "Old Wounds -Re-examining the Bucks Row Murder".
I don`t think it will help with the navel thing but it`s worth a gander.

http://www.casebook.org/dissertation...ld-wounds.html
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  #47  
Old 12-13-2017, 07:45 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post

1. Er....that's exactly what Annie's killer DID do - Inquest, Dr Phillips, Echo 19th Sept;
"The large intestine remained in situ, but cut through with a keen incision transversely
".

Keen incision is a specific term, nothing of the sort is used with Kates wound descriptions.


2. Due mostly to Baxter and his theory. I believe Phillips only ever suggested some knowledge of anatomy, not necessarily human, rather than surgical skill - Echo, same issue;
"Dr. G.B. Phillips, the divisional surgeon, has had another consultation with the police authorities respecting certain theories advanced. There are three points upon which there is agreement - that Annie Chapman was lying dead in the yard at 29 Hanbury street, when John Richardson sat on the steps to cut a piece of leather from his boot, his failure to notice the deceased being explained by the fact that the yard door, when opened, obstructed his view; that the poor creature was murdered in the yard, and not in a house, as had been at one time suggested; and that
the person who committed the deed was a man with some knowledge of human or animal anatomy."

The fact is that in September, immediately following this murder, inquiries were sent out to medical training facilities and colleges, as well as hospitals....neither of which employ or house butchers.


Meaningless does not equate to unnecessary.

No? The definition of the word does.
Its a fact Jon that they sought medical grade skills in September, no single quote undoes that fact.
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  #48  
Old 12-16-2017, 01:24 PM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Since some wish to play down the skill sets seen with Annie murder, and ONLY her murder...."No trace of these parts could be found and the incisions were cleanly cut, avoiding the rectum, and dividing the vagina low enough to avoid injury to the cervix uteri. Obviously the work was that of an expert- of one, at least, who had such knowledge of anatomical or pathological examinations as to be enabled to secure the pelvic organs with one sweep of the knife, which must therefore must have at least 5 or 6 inches in length, probably more. The appearance of the cuts confirmed him in the opinion that the instrument, like the one which divided the neck, had been of a very sharp character. The mode in which the knife had been used seemed to indicate great anatomical knowledge. "

There is no quote anywhere that suggests the above in any other Canonical killing, so either this mans skills suddenly vanished, or someone less skilled did the other murders. Since they only believed that Annie was killed by someone with that prowess, that might indicate something to those who wish to play down this fact in order to marry inconsistent sloppy knife work with skilled use of a blade, just so they can have series by a single man. If that makes you feel safe, so be it. But its hardly what the evidence reads like.
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  #49  
Old 12-17-2017, 09:57 AM
Hunter Hunter is offline
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"They" only had this one murder for precedent, which, ironically was far different in abdominal mutilations that the previous, which "they" nevertheless linked together. The continuation of the series and subsequent evidence caused the police to change and broaden their profile of the murderer while Baxter could only save face by digging himself into a deeper hole.

Despite it being only a few days between Baxter's assumptions at his summary on the Chapman murder and the double event, Baxter was already being called out by professionals on his theory as well as the fact that only one medico was involved in the examination (notice that didn't happen again). And lo-and-behold it seems they differred a little on the prowess of the killer of Kate Eddowes. If other medicos had been involved in the Chapman investigation opinions may have been different or at least changed as the series continued and more evidence came to light. Oh wait...that did happen as Percy Clark, who was Phillips' assistent said as much in 1910, as I illustrated in an earlier post.

The constant mistake I see here in analysing the physical evidence is isolating each incidence without considering a rapidly evolving series of events along with an investigation forced to act in a reactionary mode until the dust settled a bit.
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When evidence is not to be had, theories abound. Even the most plausible of them do not carry conviction- London Times Nov. 10.1888
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  #50  
Old 12-17-2017, 11:02 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
Since some wish to play down the skill sets seen with Annie murder, and ONLY her murder...."No trace of these parts could be found and the incisions were cleanly cut, avoiding the rectum, and dividing the vagina low enough to avoid injury to the cervix uteri. Obviously the work was that of an expert- of one, at least, who had such knowledge of anatomical or pathological examinations as to be enabled to secure the pelvic organs with one sweep of the knife, which must therefore must have at least 5 or 6 inches in length, probably more. The appearance of the cuts confirmed him in the opinion that the instrument, like the one which divided the neck, had been of a very sharp character. The mode in which the knife had been used seemed to indicate great anatomical knowledge.
Those are the words of the Lancet journalist, who almost certainly did not examine the body personally and whose aim was to write good copy, not to forensically document a post-mortem. We should stick to what we can reasonably accurately attribute to the man on the scene, Dr Bagster Phillips. Unfortunately, his contribution can only be found in the press reports, but even there enough detail is preserved of his testimony for us to realise that the scene was one of utter carnage. Phillips might have attributed some "anatomical knowledge" to the killer, but most people have sufficient "anatomical knowledge" to know roughly where to find the womb.
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