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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Letters and Communications > Goulston Street Graffito

View Poll Results: Did Jack write the GSG?
YES 75 38.66%
NO 119 61.34%
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  #1671  
Old 09-13-2017, 08:34 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
So as I see it, when Dr Brown talks of matching that piece with the piece still attached to the body, he must mean attached when the body was found, not when the pieces were matched.
An that's quite possibly correct. However, whether the apron was still tied to Eddowes' body whilst the GS apron piece was matched, or the apron had just been taken off the body and the GS piece then matched, it still means that the GS piece was originally part of Eddowes' apron. Of all the pieces of evidence adhering to the Ripper case, this is surely one of the most straightforward.
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  #1672  
Old 09-13-2017, 08:39 AM
Jon Guy Jon Guy is offline
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Originally Posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
That is not a positive identification. Its like a witness viewing an ID parade and says I think its number 3
A positive identification

All they were doing was confirming that Eddowes had been wearing a white apron.
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  #1673  
Old 09-13-2017, 08:43 AM
Trevor Marriott Trevor Marriott is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
An that's quite possibly correct. However, whether the apron was still tied to Eddowes' body whilst the GS apron piece was matched, or the apron had just been taken off the body and the GS piece then matched, it still means that the GS piece was originally part of Eddowes' apron. Of all the pieces of evidence adhering to the Ripper case, this is surely one of the most straightforward.
Now you are being silly, you know the match was not made until later that day. It could not have been made before because the GS piece was with Dr Phillips and he didnt go to the mortuary until the following day, and by that time the body had been stripped and the lists made up.

Yes remember them, the lists that show she was not wearing an apron.

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  #1674  
Old 09-13-2017, 08:50 AM
Trevor Marriott Trevor Marriott is offline
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Originally Posted by Jon Guy View Post
A positive identification

All they were doing was confirming that Eddowes had been wearing a white apron.
I give up with you I surrender

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  #1675  
Old 09-13-2017, 09:40 AM
Hunter Hunter is offline
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Originally Posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
Now you are being silly, you know the match was not made until later that day. It could not have been made before because the GS piece was with Dr Phillips and he didnt go to the mortuary until the following day, and by that time the body had been stripped and the lists made.
That is simply not true. Upon receiving the GS piece at Leman St. Phillips carried it to the Golden Lane mortuary and met Brown there on the morning of the murders.
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When evidence is not to be had, theories abound. Even the most plausible of them do not carry conviction- London Times Nov. 10.1888
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  #1676  
Old 09-13-2017, 12:16 PM
Pierre Pierre is offline
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Originally Posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
There is no doubt that the GS piece matched another piece of apron found with the body at the mortuary when the body was stripped. There is no evidence to show that the two pieces when matched made up a full apron, and dont let anyone on here try to tell you otherwise.

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And all you want to say with that is that the pieces were "sanitary towels" used by the victim, who discarded one in Goulston Street.

And Steve wants to try and examine the "timings" for that idea to show it is "impossible".

And your idea is based your interest in making Feigenbaum the killer.

And Steve´s mission is based on the interest in "making everything possible or impossible".

And the sum of all this is:

There will be endless discussions about whether it is possible or impossible that a piece of apron was used as a sanitary towel by the victim and whether it is possible or impossible that Feigenbaum was the killer.

Another endless discussion in 130 years of endless discussions.

Pierre
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  #1677  
Old 09-13-2017, 02:29 PM
etenguy etenguy is online now
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Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
Hutt said she left the police station at 1am, and estimated it was an 8 minute walk to Mitre Square. Meaning there was time, I think, to - in theory - walk to Goulston Street, deposit apron, go to Aldgate, pick up a companion and get to Church Passage by half past one.

This may have been possible, though she started the journey moving away from Goulston street. Not sure what she would go there for either - if it was to meet a potential client, surely she would have stayed there for at least 15 minutes before searching more fertile ground.

Missed not just once, but up to three times between about 1:20 and 2:55

Indeed.


In theory, that sounds like a possibility. But remember, this poor woman was wearing or carrying everything she owned. Do you think she'd resort to destroying her own clothing when she already had "12 pieces of white rag, some slightly bloodstained" along with various othet pieces of material in her pockets?

I agree it is unlikely.


There are various desciptions of the Goulston Street apron piece in the press reports if you trawl through them. Most say something like it looked as if someone had wiped their hands or knife on it.

It is just possible that journalists were describing what they thought might help sell papers and the imagery used evokes a possible murderer's use of the apron.

It's interesting to note that a bloodstained cloth was found a few streets away from the Pinchin Street torso, which was recognised as having been used for sanitary purposes since it was folded into a diaper shape.
That is interesting and suggests the police would have not considered that as likely in the gs scenario (else they would have recorded as much).
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  #1678  
Old 09-13-2017, 02:31 PM
Trevor Marriott Trevor Marriott is offline
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
That is simply not true. Upon receiving the GS piece at Leman St. Phillips carried it to the Golden Lane mortuary and met Brown there on the morning of the murders.
I think you are a little bit out.

Dr. Phillips who was at Leman Street Police Station and after receiving the GS piece the following morning took it to the mortuary for it to be matched with the mortuary piece, but he did not arrive at the mortuary till some time after 5.20am, and I would suggest this was when the post mortem was being carried out much later in the morning. So Dr. Brown could not have fitted the Goulston Street piece at the mortuary while the mortuary piece was affixed to the body if it ever was fixed.

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  #1679  
Old 09-13-2017, 03:28 PM
Hunter Hunter is offline
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Hi Trevor,

I agree that the remaining part of the apron with Catherine Eddowes' body was already removed and invoiced before Phillips arrived. My point was that Phillips left Leman St. shortly after receiving the other piece around 4 a.m. of the morning of the murder, not the following morning. He attended the preliminary examination that lasted till just before 6 a.m. having been summoned by Dr. Brown himself. The two pieces were matched together at that time. They then agreed to go home, probably flesh out their notes and get some needed rest, then return for the formal post-mortem at 2 p.m.

In other words, Phillips made two trips to Golden Lane on Sept. 30.
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When evidence is not to be had, theories abound. Even the most plausible of them do not carry conviction- London Times Nov. 10.1888
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  #1680  
Old 09-13-2017, 04:33 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
.... There is no mention of an apron amongst the clothing she was wearing.

The list of personal property shows she was in possession of "one piece of old white apron" Now had she been wearing an apron and the killer had cut or torn a piece as was believed at the time, I would have expected that to be firstly shown in the list of clothing worn, and secondly it would have been sureley described as "One old white apron with piece missing" But it was not, why?
Trevor, the apron is mentioned.

Eddowes only had one handkerchief, it was white with 'red & white birds' as a border. It is listed here in the Times of Oct. 1st.
"...a common white handkerchief with a red border,"

In her list of possessions this is described as:
"1 White Cotton Pocket Handkerchief, red and white birds eye border."

However, the Times also offers two articles found around her neck:
"...and a piece of old white coarse apron and a piece of riband were tied loosely around the neck."

In her list of possessions we find the same two articles listed together:
"1 piece of red gauze silk, various cuts thereon found on neck.
1 large White Handkerchief, blood stained".


The ragged piece of blood-stained apron found around her neck was described as a handkerchief by the constable who made the list.

The GS piece brought by Phillips is the last item on her list of possessions:
"1 Piece of old White Apron".

So, both pieces are there.
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