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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

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  #71  
Old 11-27-2016, 06:20 AM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
Are there references in the inquest transcript to both pieces of apron being produced in court? If so, it would surely have been obvious to everyone present whether or not these two portions made up a whole apron.

Mr. Crawford. - Could you identify it?
PC Robinson - I could if I saw the whole of it.
A brown paper parcel was produced, from which two pieces of apron were taken and shown to the witness, who said, - To the best of my knowledge and belief that is the apron.
The Times.
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  #72  
Old 11-27-2016, 06:24 AM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Originally Posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
The GS piece, which was in the possession of Dr Phillips had not arrived at the mortuary by 5.20am, and the pieces not matched until the post mortem.

The inventory was made as soon as the body arrived at the mortuary.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk
From your response Trevor, and Simon's lack of the same, we can take it that the actual 'times' previously asserted are in actual fact, not known.

I wasn't looking for opinion, everybody has one of those.
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  #73  
Old 11-27-2016, 08:01 AM
jerryd jerryd is offline
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Originally Posted by Simon Wood View Post
Hi Jerry,

Inspector Collard, Eddowes’ inquest, Day One—

"I produce a portion of the apron which deceased was apparently wearing which had been cut through and was found outside her dress."

What could that mean?

Regards,

Simon
The apron was a layer above her dress and cut through due to the other portion being taken by the killer.
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  #74  
Old 11-27-2016, 08:19 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is online now
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Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
Mr. Crawford. - Could you identify it?
PC Robinson - I could if I saw the whole of it.
A brown paper parcel was produced, from which two pieces of apron were taken and shown to the witness, who said, - To the best of my knowledge and belief that is the apron.
The Times.
Thanks Jon. That excerpt from the Times (12th Oct) tallies with other papers' accounts, such as these two;

East London Advertiser 13th Oct
Last time he saw her was at 9 o'clock in the cell. She was wearing a white apron at that time, which he identified with one produced as the one she was wearing. (The apron, which was in two pieces was covered with blood, as if a large knife had been wiped upon it).

Star 11th Oct
Police-constable Robinson proved arresting the deceased for drunkenness on the Saturday afternoon before her death and locking her up in a cell. She was wearing an apron. THE APRON was here produced by the police, in two pieces, covered with blood, and witness identified it. The ghastly reminder of the crime quite upset Mrs. Phillips, the deceased's daughter, who sobbed bitterly on seeing the blood-smeared rag.
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  #75  
Old 11-27-2016, 08:29 AM
jerryd jerryd is offline
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Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
Thanks Jon. That excerpt from the Times (12th Oct) tallies with other papers' accounts, such as these two;

East London Advertiser 13th Oct
Last time he saw her was at 9 o'clock in the cell. She was wearing a white apron at that time, which he identified with one produced as the one she was wearing. (The apron, which was in two pieces was covered with blood, as if a large knife had been wiped upon it).

Star 11th Oct
Police-constable Robinson proved arresting the deceased for drunkenness on the Saturday afternoon before her death and locking her up in a cell. She was wearing an apron. THE APRON was here produced by the police, in two pieces, covered with blood, and witness identified it. The ghastly reminder of the crime quite upset Mrs. Phillips, the deceased's daughter, who sobbed bitterly on seeing the blood-smeared rag.
Add to that PC Hutt's inquest testimony:

[Coroner] In your opinion is that the apron the deceased was wearing? - To the best of my belief it is.
[Coroner] What is the distance from Mitre-square to your station? - About 400 yards.
[Coroner] Do you know the direct route to Flower and Dean-street? - No.
A Juror: Do you search persons who are brought in for drunkenness? - No, but we take from them anything that might be dangerous. I loosened the things round the deceased's neck, and I then saw a white wrapper and a red silk handkerchief.

Is a white wrapper an apron?

EDIT: Looking at old Victorian clothing it appears a "wrapper" is a day dress. What things did he loosen other than a neckerchief around her neck. It sounds like there were more than one "thing" around her neck.

Last edited by jerryd : 11-27-2016 at 08:40 AM.
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  #76  
Old 11-27-2016, 08:41 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is online now
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Thanks Jerry. Any idea what the 'white wrapper' referred to actually was? I'd always imagined it was a form of scarf, possibly one (or both) of the white handkerchieves listed in her clothing. But when I googled it, a wrapper seems to have been a sort of dressing gown....

Edit: Ah, I see you have done the same!
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  #77  
Old 11-27-2016, 08:43 AM
jerryd jerryd is offline
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Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
Thanks Jerry. Any idea what the 'white wrapper' referred to actually was? I'd always imagined it was a form of scarf, possibly one (or both) of the white handkerchieves listed in her clothing. But when I googled it, a wrapper seems to have been a sort of dressing gown....
Hi Joshua,

See my EDIT in my last post. That means he had to loosen some things around her neck (such as an apron string) before he saw the dress which corresponds to the dress being under the apron as I thought.

Thinking back, though, there wasn't a white day dress in the inventory as I remember, so maybe that wasn't the wrapper Hutt referred to. So, what was the wrapper?

Last edited by jerryd : 11-27-2016 at 09:08 AM.
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  #78  
Old 11-27-2016, 09:18 AM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Originally Posted by jerryd View Post
Hi Joshua,

See my EDIT in my last post. That means he had to loosen some things around her neck (such as an apron string) before he saw the dress which corresponds to the dress being under the apron as I thought.

Thinking back, though, there wasn't a white day dress in the inventory as I remember, so maybe that wasn't the wrapper Hutt referred to. So, what was the wrapper?


Many living history programs, which focus on domestic life in the second half of the 19th Century are faced with the dilemma of women who want to, or are supposed to be in 19th Century costume, but who are not willing or able to wear the elaborate underpinnings that go with fashionable ladies' attire, such as corsets, petticoats, bustles and the like.

Many more who are willing to give it a try lack the sewing skills required to produce one of these rather complex dresses.

There is a solution: it is called the "wrapper".

The 19th Century wrapper is a house dress. It was worn to do the hard work that was so much a part of the life of 19th Century women. Floors need to be scrubbed, cows milked, laundry washed, children chased, meals prepared etc. etc., and none of this is really possible for a woman all trussed up in a corset and bustle.

Working class women on the farm or in the tenement would frequently only have a wrapper, and not even possess a fashionable dress. Middle class women, who would wear fashionable finery to go out visiting, would wear a wrapper to do the housework. While most middle class families had maids of all work to help out, the lady of the house also did a lot of drudge work, and she did it in a wrapper.

The wrapper, interestingly enough, got more fashionable as the century progressed, so that by the 1890s, ladies were entertaining other ladies in "Tea Wrappers".

http://walternelson.com/historia/200...e_wrapper.html
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Last edited by Wickerman : 11-27-2016 at 09:31 AM.
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  #79  
Old 11-27-2016, 09:27 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is online now
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The white wrapper doesn't really sound like an apron bib to me, I wonder if Hutt was referring to her chemise (which is listed as an item of her clothing)? He would surely only have seen this after loosening her dress at the neck, as it would be worn next to the skin.

Other than the Telegraph account, I can only find two other reports that mention her being searched, and neither mention a wrapper, or anything else around her neck except the red hankie.

Daily News 12th Oct
By the Jury - We do not examine the pockets of drunken persons, but we unfastened the dress at the neck, and I then noticed a red silk handkerchief.

Times 12th Oct
By a juryman. - Prisoners were not searched who were brought into the station drunk. Handkerchiefs or anything with which they could injure themselves would be taken from them.
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  #80  
Old 11-27-2016, 09:35 AM
jerryd jerryd is offline
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Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
The white wrapper doesn't really sound like an apron bib to me
Hey Joshua,

I wasn't thinking it was the bib, but a day dress, which I was faulty in thinking. Hutt does mention loosening "things" (plural) around her neck. Dr. Brown also mentioned strings being still attached round the neck. That is what leads me to believe she wore a bib apron that night.

It really doesn't matter in the scheme of things whether it was a bib apron or not. Was just trying to get to the bottom of it, if possible.

Last edited by jerryd : 11-27-2016 at 09:38 AM.
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