Different Killers

[John G]

Welcome to "the fence" John.

I wouldn't worry too much about the knife issue. The length of the knife in other cases was estimated due to the abdominal mutilations (specific organs being stabbed). As there was none in Stride's case there was no means for the doctors to estimate the blade length.
Regardless how long the blade was the depth of the cut in the throat would be the same, the best that could be estimated is a minimum length, hence the suggestion by Phillips that a shoemakers knife could have done it.

Hi Jon,

Thanks for that insight. I must admit that I hadn't considered the issue of the knife from that perspective before. I suppose the issue that still arises is why was the depth of cut, although clearly deep, significantly less than demonstrated in the Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes, and Kelly, murders, where, of course, it has been argued that the killer may have been attempting to decapitate his victims?

And, of course, although the lack of mutilations could be explained by the killer being disturbed, that is very much down to speculation, although based upon Edward Spooner's evidence I do see some force in the argument.

The "double event" also raises some cause for concern. Trevor Marriott seems to be arguing that this would be inconsistent with the likely personality of the killer and, of course, whilst serial killers rarely attack 2 victims in one day, let alone within about an hour, such an even wouldn't be unprecedented: Ted Bundy, for example.

Of course, in favour of Stride as a Ripper victim, we have apparent consistency of strategy, i.e. in respect of avoiding arterial spray-although that could have been down to luck, particularly if the scarf was used as a ligature, lack of evidence for this being a more common domestic-style murder, and the fact that if you reject BS man, a victim [Stride} who was taken completely unawares, oblivious to the danger she was in. And now Batman has presented his geo-profiling argument.

As I've argued before, I don't think the venue decides things one way or another. Yes, there was the risk from the busy, adjacent club, but balanced against that you have to consider that the general locality appeared to be fairly quiet and, of course, the near-pitch black darkness of Dutfield's Yard was clearly to the killers advantage. In fact, considering the darkness the type of mutilations we see in the other C5 victims, would presumably be tricky to effect, although that too could be argued either way; suggesting a poor choice of venue on one hand, whilst, alternatively, giving another explanation for the killer's failure to at least attempt mutilations.

It should also be remembered that both Hanbury Street and Mitre Square were far from ideal locations to commit murder.

No, I think altogether the arguments for and against Stride's inclusion are pretty finally balanced.

Best wishes,

John

[lynn cates]

axe

Hello John. Thanks.

"What I do find strange is why those who believe Stride was a Ripper victim continue to persist with the BS man argument. I mean, it may not have escaped your notice that, ironically, your argument doesn't undermine Stride being a Ripper victim; if anything it strengthens it!"

Yes. If I had an axe to grind, I'd accept Schwartz and consider it grist for my mill.

Of course, IF Schwartz is telling the truth, surely BSM killed Liz. Hence, I think Israel fibbed.

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hello John. Thanks.

"What I do find strange is why those who believe Stride was a Ripper victim continue to persist with the BS man argument. I mean, it may not have escaped your notice that, ironically, your argument doesn't undermine Stride being a Ripper victim; if anything it strengthens it!"

Yes. If I had an axe to grind, I'd accept Schwartz and consider it grist for my mill.

Of course, IF Schwartz is telling the truth, surely BSM killed Liz. Hence, I think Israel fibbed.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

Surely????

c.d.

[lynn cates]

tale

Hello CD. Thanks.

Well, that's what the whole tale was about, right?

1. Woman killed around 12.45 last night?

2. Hmm, I saw a fracas just then.

3. Maybe that was the murder?

4. By the way, the lad was a Gentile bully.

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

He shouted Lipski because Schwartz, a Jew, walked in on his attack. Schwartz described the frontal assault. There is frontal bruising in the autopsy report on her upper chest. One side of her coat caked in mud.

If you to pretend Stride is not a ripper victim explain how someone walking east from this crime scene wouldn't stumble upon Eddowes on her way out of the drunk tank.

You can't do it because its a bang on match for timing.

How about this for a change, accept that Israel Schwartz had nothing to do with the Inquest and that IF his story was believed he would have been compelled by the police to provide it at said Inquest....now find another argument to try and dispel the obvious.

Cheers

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Batman,

I still feel that Edward Spooner is a very valuable witness when considering likely time of death. You're right that he seriously underestimated how late it was, however, there is clearly no doubt he was at the murder scene and it had to be after 1:00am

That's an incorrect assumption, since Spooners timing coincides with 2 club witnesses who stated they were alerted to the body in the passageway between 12:40 and 12:45. Spooner wasn't wrong....the witnesses in the club who had access to clocks weren't wrong, the witnesses without any corroboration were either lying or incorrect.

To that point...Louis said that he went for help with Isaac(s) after 1am, yet Isaac Kozebrodski said within an hour of the body being found that Louis sent him out alone for help.

Do you recall any club management witness, or guest speaker, recounting that trip out for help by Issac? Did Louis mention it? Is there any record that states 3 parties went out for help? Nope. Why not?

But that's what Issac said happened, and he said it happened at around 12:40-12:45am.

Don't assume the people who are not corroborated have any merit to this conversation, because they are the ones with the most to lose in this story. Louis, Morris and Lave. Louis runs the club, Morris speaks there and Lave stays in the cottages. If the club were closed as a result of this murder all 3 lose income, and one loses a home.

And Schwartz is alleged to have been friends with Wess for some years...the man whose paper would also be shut down.

[c.d.]

How about this for a change, accept that Israel Schwartz had nothing to do with the Inquest and that IF his story was believed he would have been compelled by the police to provide it at said Inquest....now find another argument to try and dispel the obvious.

Cheers

....and you KNOW this how, Michael?

c.d.

[John G]

That's an incorrect assumption, since Spooners timing coincides with 2 club witnesses who stated they were alerted to the body in the passageway between 12:40 and 12:45. Spooner wasn't wrong....the witnesses in the club who had access to clocks weren't wrong, the witnesses without any corroboration were either lying or incorrect.

To that point...Louis said that he went for help with Isaac(s) after 1am, yet Isaac Kozebrodski said within an hour of the body being found that Louis sent him out alone for help.

Do you recall any club management witness, or guest speaker, recounting that trip out for help by Issac? Did Louis mention it? Is there any record that states 3 parties went out for help? Nope. Why not?

But that's what Issac said happened, and he said it happened at around 12:40-12:45am.

Don't assume the people who are not corroborated have any merit to this conversation, because they are the ones with the most to lose in this story. Louis, Morris and Lave. Louis runs the club, Morris speaks there and Lave stays in the cottages. If the club were closed as a result of this murder all 3 lose income, and one loses a home.

And Schwartz is alleged to have been friends with Wess for some years...the man whose paper would also be shut down.

Hello Michael,

I don't necessarily agree with you, but I wouldn't reject the idea of a club conspiracy out of hand. Of course, this also raises the intriguing possibility that certain members of the club knew, or suspected, who was responsible but, for whatever reason, chose to cover it up.

I'm sure you have also considered the importance of Fanny Mortimer's evidence. She is credited with saying that she went to her door having heard the heavy tread of a policeman passing by. Now as we know that could only be PC Smith at 12:35. She then supposedly, said that she heard a passing pony and cart, presumably Diemshitz, about 4 or 5 minutes before she returned indoors. Assuming he was telling the truth, this would fix the time at around 12:55/12:56.

That implies that she was at her front door between 12:35 and, say, 12:55. Now if that is the case, during that period she should have seen Charles Letchford's sister, Morris Eagle, Joseph Lave, Israel Scwartz, Pipeman, Stride, and Stride's attacker. However, she saw none of these people, and they didn't see her. The only person she did see was Leon Goldstein and his little black bag. It has generally been accepted that she must have got her timings mixed up, but what if she was correct and everyone else lied?

I don't say that Fanny Mortimer was definitely correct and, as I understand it, we are reliant on the press reports of her account. However, unlike the club members, she at least, had no obvious reason to lie. And, of course, if we're being objective, rather than simply advancing a pet theory, we can't pick and choose who we decide to believe or disbelieve.

In fact, I still find it strange that, despite the presence of 28 members, and all the singing going on, the club insisted that they would have heard an argument/ altercation outside of the club. Is this perhaps more evidence of a possible cover up? I mean, how could they possibly know with any degree of certainty?

What I also find a little strange is that she not only didn't see the altercation witnessed by Scwartz, she didn't even hear anything untoward, even assuming she was back indoors at that time.

[c.d.]

Hello John,

As far as I know, it was only Eagle and Mrs. Diemschitz who made the statement that they believed that they would have heard something and that was because they said a door was open. They probably didn't make that statement with 100% metaphysical certainty but were simply saying that it was more likely than not.

The problem with a conspiracy theory is that once you put on conspiracy glasses everything reeks of a conspiracy and Occam's razor takes a holiday.

c.d.

[John G]

Hello John,

As far as I know, it was only Eagle and Mrs. Diemschitz who made the statement that they believed that they would have heard something and that was because they said a door was open. They probably didn't make that statement with 100% metaphysical certainty but were simply saying that it was more likely than not.

The problem with a conspiracy theory is that once you put on conspiracy glasses everything reeks of a conspiracy and Occam's razor takes a holiday.

c.d.

Hello C.d.,

Yes, I tend to agree, at least as far as a grand conspiracy, although I really have doubts about Scwartz's account. However, Schwartz doesn't seem to have had any association with the club, as far as I know, so I doubt he was involved in any club conspiracy. And, of course, such a conspiracy would have to involve an awful lot of people, which makes it unlikely that someone, at some point, wouldn't have broke ranks.

However, I do find it strange that Mortimer's evidence is so inconsistent with the other witnesses, particularly as she was able to fix her time outdoors based upon the sound of a policeman's tread, Smith presumably, and the arrival of a pony and cart, presumably Diemshitz. And why didn't she at least hear the altercation, allegedly witnessed by Schwartz?

[c.d.]

Hello John,

I think that most of the problems and inconsistencies associated with Schwartz's story stem from the fact that he came in in the middle of the movie, only stayed a minute or so and didn't understand what was being said. Couple that with the fact that an interpreter had to be used.

Lynn and Michael believe that Schwartz was associated with the club.

My problem with the whole club conspiracy theory is that I simply don't see the need. To me, the best course of action for the club would be to cooperate fully with the police. Why risk making up a story that could blow up in your face?

As for Mrs. Mortimer, it is hard to say. My gut feeling is that she wasn't as vigilant in her observations as she let on to be but who knows for sure.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

paranoia

Hello CD.

"My problem with the whole club conspiracy theory is that I simply don't see the need. To me, the best course of action for the club would be to cooperate fully with the police. Why risk making up a story that could blow up in your face?"

To be honest, I don't see the need either. But:

1. The club cooperated with the investigation immediately Liz were found.

2. They CLAIMED that the police tried to entrap them by offering illegally to buy a cigar. (Frankly, I think the copper was having a nicotine fit.)

3. The club was a bit paranoid and thought the story would help their "cause." (Paranoia was understandable given their antecedents, and persecution before emigrating.)

Cheers.
LC

[Batman]

Strides body was interfered with before the police got there.

Diemschutz prodded her and tried to lift her with the handle of his whip before cracking a match.

Even Spooner bent down and lifted up her chin.

[Michael W Richards]

....and you KNOW this how, Michael?

c.d.

You keep asking this question when you know very well Israel or any reference to Israel, or BSM or Pipeman is absent from all existing records of the Inquest.

For you that seems to mean he was a secreted witness...even though we have evidence that witnesses whose stories were being investigated at the time of an Inquest were in attendance, and the jury was told that parts of their story were being withheld due to the ongoing nature of the investigation.

Lawende was sequestered, his lodgings paid for, and he was introduced at the Inquest. That suggests a strong belief in his story. There is no such evidence that Israel...no evidence at all...had his story even entered into the records of the proceedings. No record it was submitted in written form, no evidence he was "secreted" away, no evidence he had anything to do with the Inquest.

And if you choose to view this logically, you will see as I do that IF he was believed and felt to be important, we would have a record that was the case...since we have the transcript records to peruse. And logically if he was believed, he would have been the single most important sighting of any Ripper victim with someone just before their murder. Assaulting a victim within a minute of the earliest time of her throat cut validates that claim.

I know your arguments about Stride reflect your belief Jack killed her, ....the supposed interruption to explain 1 cut and her lying on her side, a claim that Jack might have arrived after BSM left, and your belief that Israel has any bearing at all on the events.....but you know as well as I do that any argument for those issues requires at the very least some evidence.

My position is based on what the records reveal, not who I believe killed her.

Time to move on from Israel and view the evidence as it lays cd.

Cheers

[Michael W Richards]

As for Mrs. Mortimer, it is hard to say. My gut feeling is that she wasn't as vigilant in her observations as she let on to be but who knows for sure.

c.d.

Fanny Mortimer claimed to be at her door off and on from 12:30 until 12:50, at which point she was at it continuously until 1am. She had no connection with the club, nothing to hide, and no reason to lie. She saw the same street that Israel claimed he was on with Liz and BSM and Pipeman, she saw the same street that Louis says he used to pull up to the gates at 1am, and she saw the same deserted street that Lave and the young couple saw.

She saw or heard none of Israels alleged events, and she definitely didn't see or hear Louis arrive at 1am.

Id suggest forgetting your "gut" and using your upper organ.