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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Elizabeth Stride

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  #1  
Old 11-14-2016, 05:23 AM
Charles Daniels Charles Daniels is offline
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Default An INCREDIBLY fanciful idea about Stride murder

This might be a crazy stretch, but here's an idea which I've back engineered
to fit the questions raised by the facts.
This is more of a mental exercise, or an idea, I wouldn't call it a theory or anything.

This is probably totally wrong, but let's kick the ball around and see if we get anywhere.

A lot of people have very good reason to question the Stride case.
Both in the location and the state the killer left the victim in.

And it's fairly agreed that the International Working Men's Club makes this
a busy and undesirable location for either sex trade or wanton murder.

Now, here's where I'm allowing some cinematic imagination to come in.

First,

The Pall Mall Gazette says

"And, even should, by the most remote possibility, the murderer be disturbed by anybody opening the gate from the street entrance, he is by no means caught in a trap, for there are plenty of backyards that can be scaled, and a great many courts and passages, leading to Berner and other streets, to be easily reached"


So in my made for Hollywood scene:

Stride starts off by leading her killer to one of these courts, passages, or
private backyards. In the near distance one can hear the activity and bustle
of the working men's club, but they are in a spot which is reliably secluded
enough to carry out a quick sex act.

The killer somehow tips his hand, or errs, or in some way triggers Stride to
want to flee the secluded location.

As she can hear the working men's club, and it's obviously busy there, she
tries to make her way to this public location as quickly as possible.

If she escapes, she could describe, and perhaps even positively ID the suspect.

The killer now has to pursue Stride.

Stride makes it as far as Dutfield's Yard when the killer catches her up.

Now this murder becomes different. The killer now has a good reason to kill
Stride with the killing itself having it's own merit -- killing a potential
witness against him.

So even though the International Working Men's Club is right there, his hand is forced, he kills as quickly as he can and then flees -- either by being genuinely interrupted, or just wanting to make the best of a bad job and leaving a location he knows is dangerous for him.


So, likely a million holes here, shoot me down
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  #2  
Old 11-14-2016, 05:52 AM
Pcdunn Pcdunn is offline
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Hello, Charles, welcome to Casebook.

I think it would depend upon the geography of the area as it was then. Maybe someone else could point you to a period map, for checking your speculation against the real layout?

Also, Stride might have found it difficult to scale a fence or wall in typical 19th century dress, but she could have run down a passage, probably, so that might work.
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  #3  
Old 11-14-2016, 06:04 AM
Charles Daniels Charles Daniels is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pcdunn View Post
Hello, Charles, welcome to Casebook.

I think it would depend upon the geography of the area as it was then. Maybe someone else could point you to a period map, for checking your speculation against the real layout?

Also, Stride might have found it difficult to scale a fence or wall in typical 19th century dress, but she could have run down a passage, probably, so that might work.
Yeah if the Pall Mall indicated she would of had to have definitely scaled a fence, then I would have thrown out the idea immediately. As that would mean you'd need her to scale the fence, the killer to scale the fence, and the presumably the killer to scale the same fence again. Seems like a lot of work.

I believe the maps of the time do show backyards, and people have concluded that all there were to chose from were fences and walls.

Yet the Pall Mall Gazette speaks of passages and courtyards.

Or pushing it further, the map might show fences and walls only -- but we don't necessarily know from a map that these fences and walls were all in good nick. Maybe there were gaps?

I believe the maps probably show a pretty bleak picture for escaping through anything but the main entrance, so why does the newspaper say that escape would have been trivial?

Good copy? Or maybe the truth on the ground doesn't reflect the most contemporary map we have of the area?
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  #4  
Old 11-14-2016, 06:55 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Daniels View Post
This might be a crazy stretch, but here's an idea which I've back engineered
to fit the questions raised by the facts.
This is more of a mental exercise, or an idea, I wouldn't call it a theory or anything.

This is probably totally wrong, but let's kick the ball around and see if we get anywhere.

A lot of people have very good reason to question the Stride case.
Both in the location and the state the killer left the victim in.

And it's fairly agreed that the International Working Men's Club makes this
a busy and undesirable location for either sex trade or wanton murder.

Now, here's where I'm allowing some cinematic imagination to come in.

First,

The Pall Mall Gazette says

"And, even should, by the most remote possibility, the murderer be disturbed by anybody opening the gate from the street entrance, he is by no means caught in a trap, for there are plenty of backyards that can be scaled, and a great many courts and passages, leading to Berner and other streets, to be easily reached"


So in my made for Hollywood scene:

Stride starts off by leading her killer to one of these courts, passages, or
private backyards. In the near distance one can hear the activity and bustle
of the working men's club, but they are in a spot which is reliably secluded
enough to carry out a quick sex act.

The killer somehow tips his hand, or errs, or in some way triggers Stride to
want to flee the secluded location.

As she can hear the working men's club, and it's obviously busy there, she
tries to make her way to this public location as quickly as possible.

If she escapes, she could describe, and perhaps even positively ID the suspect.

The killer now has to pursue Stride.

Stride makes it as far as Dutfield's Yard when the killer catches her up.

Now this murder becomes different. The killer now has a good reason to kill
Stride with the killing itself having it's own merit -- killing a potential
witness against him.

So even though the International Working Men's Club is right there, his hand is forced, he kills as quickly as he can and then flees -- either by being genuinely interrupted, or just wanting to make the best of a bad job and leaving a location he knows is dangerous for him.


So, likely a million holes here, shoot me down
welcome Charles
IMHO its a little far fetched that Stride would be scaling fences etc.

Now that being said, ive often put forth a couple of somewhat similar scenarios.
One being she actually has her throat cut out on the street, BS man flees and she makes her way toward the sounds of safety, only to expire in the yard.

or she gets away from BS man after his initial attack and flees toward perceived safety, he catched up with her in the yard and cuts her throat, then flees.
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  #5  
Old 11-14-2016, 09:31 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is online now
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Hi Charles,

While I think the Pall Mall Gazette's talk of courts and passages holds true for Berner Street as a whole, Dutfield's Yard itself seems to have been enclosed on all sides by buildings. William Wess, who to my mind appears to have been called to inquest specifically for his knowledge of the place, says;

"At the south side of the premises is a courtyard, to which entrance can be obtained through a double door, in one section of which is a smaller one, which is used when the larger barriers are closed. The large doors are generally closed at night, but sometimes remain open. On the left side of the yard is a house, which is divided into three tenements, and occupied, I believe, by that number of families. At the end is a store or workshop belonging to Messrs. Hindley and Co., sack manufacturers. I do not know that a way out exists there. The club premises and the printing-office occupy the entire length of the yard on the right side."

The Goad map for the area (1890) seems to confirm there were no exits to the yard, although it's not possible to tell whether there were any doors that would have given egress, to the stables, for instance. The only fence in the yard is near the entrance and may have been a back gate to the pub yard.
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  #6  
Old 11-14-2016, 09:34 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is online now
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Here is the 1890 map of the yard
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  #7  
Old 11-14-2016, 10:22 AM
Charles Daniels Charles Daniels is offline
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Thanks Joshua!
This looks like a real warren to me.
It's a bit difficult for me to wrap my head around what I'm seeing

Near 678 there's a clear gap between pink shaded areas and then a clear area with a rectangle with square cut out and further unshaded boxes.

So if there since access there?
also there is a Sack Fac.

Sack Factory?
What is that building? Or those buildings actually

And why are some buildings crossed out?

Cheers!
And thanks again!
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  #8  
Old 11-14-2016, 11:49 AM
ChrisGeorge ChrisGeorge is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
Hi Charles,

While I think the Pall Mall Gazette's talk of courts and passages holds true for Berner Street as a whole, Dutfield's Yard itself seems to have been enclosed on all sides by buildings. William Wess, who to my mind appears to have been called to inquest specifically for his knowledge of the place, says;

"At the south side of the premises is a courtyard, to which entrance can be obtained through a double door, in one section of which is a smaller one, which is used when the larger barriers are closed. The large doors are generally closed at night, but sometimes remain open. On the left side of the yard is a house, which is divided into three tenements, and occupied, I believe, by that number of families. At the end is a store or workshop belonging to Messrs. Hindley and Co., sack manufacturers. I do not know that a way out exists there. The club premises and the printing-office occupy the entire length of the yard on the right side."

The Goad map for the area (1890) seems to confirm there were no exits to the yard, although it's not possible to tell whether there were any doors that would have given egress, to the stables, for instance. The only fence in the yard is near the entrance and may have been a back gate to the pub yard.
Hi all

I agree that Dutfield's Yard was a dead end, so if Liz Stride had run from another location it could only have been from a secluded location or court further up the street, in which case she would have been observed fleeing from the killer, and that would have been noted. As for the cross on those buildings, I may be wrong, but I think that might indicate the roof line. That is, the buildings on Berner Street each had a flat roof whereas the sack factory and other nearby buildings had a hipped roof.

Best regards

Chris
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  #9  
Old 11-14-2016, 11:58 AM
jerryd jerryd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisGeorge View Post
Hi all

I agree that Dutfield's Yard was a dead end, so if Liz Stride had run from another location it could only have been from a secluded location or court further up the street, in which case she would have been observed fleeing from the killer, and that would have been noted. As for the cross on those buildings, I may be wrong, but I think that might indicate the roof line. That is, the buildings on Berner Street each had a flat roof whereas the sack factory and other nearby buildings had a hipped roof.

Best regards

Chris
According to the map legend, the cross indicates a stable.
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  #10  
Old 11-14-2016, 12:05 PM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is online now
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The entrance to the yard between the Club and no. 42 is just to the left of the S of (Berner ) STRE(et), and 678 is the first of the three tenements (sometimes called cottages) mentioned by Wess in his evidence. Just to the right of 678 is the toilet block, and the gap you mention gives access to these, but may also give access to the back yard of the public house on the corner (The Nelson, I think), and possibly the back yards of the adjoining houses. Unfortunately the map doesn't show actual gates or doorways, so no way to tell if this is a low wooden fence, gate or blank unscalable 10 ft wall.
The sack factory is exactly what it sounds like, a factory for making sacks, run by Messrs Hindley and Co. Possibly just a shed where sack cloth was stitched into bags. I believe that somewhere in the evidence there is reference to women working piecemeal, turning up to collect cloth and deliver finished sacks, so it may have been used mostly for storage.
Crossed out buildings indicate stables (horses being abundant at the time). From memory, Dutfield (after whom the yard was named) originally made carts there, but not by 1888. So the stables accessible from the yard were no longer used for horses. I suspect the Omnibus Company stables beyond them would have been very busy, though.
The brown building indicates wooden construction (pink being brick) and housed the printing office above an open area (possibly once a blacksmiths) which gives access to a stable block. Again, no way of telling if this in turn led to the back yards of more houses, assuming it could even be opened itself.

Well, I hope that helps you picture the scene, and that I haven't misrepresented the place too badly.
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