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  #31  
Old 07-31-2012, 10:48 PM
lynn cates lynn cates is offline
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Hello Tom. I agree about Polly. I also think she was soliciting when she met her assailant.

Cheers.
LC
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  #32  
Old 07-31-2012, 11:31 PM
Tom_Wescott Tom_Wescott is offline
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Do you agree when I say that the other victims were likewise prostitutes?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott
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  #33  
Old 07-31-2012, 11:50 PM
Supe Supe is offline
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Tom,

Might the Evans-Rumbelow description "casual prostitute" be appropriate for most of the victims? It is worth noting that with the exception of Kelly, they all tried to earn an honest living as well. That said, I would hazard they were all soliciting on the nights they were murdered.

Don.
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  #34  
Old 07-31-2012, 11:57 PM
mariab mariab is offline
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I agree with Don about the "on and off" soliciting and I do agree with Lynn if he sees the Eddowes encounter with her killer as "spur of the moment" soliciting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lynn cates View Post
Also, I am approaching research from a different angle--with the Okhrana in brackets. (That, because of Rachkovski's retroactive rather than proactive handing of the Vasilliev story.)
VERY interested in what you've discovered about the Okhrana hiring local PE agencies to conduct provocatory political crimes. Esp. since the PE who involved himself with obstructing the Stride investigation is on record for claiming involvement in the Parnell case. I'm extremely interested in researching this.
As for the Vassiliev story, why “retroactive“? You've mentioned this before, Lynn (without explaining your interpretation), but I totally see it as "proactive" myself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lynn cates View Post
I am interested in Tom's Albert Bachert character
Bachert is well-known as the quintessential agitator and fabricator, and he hated the IWEC with a vengeance. Bachert's re-using of Ms. Mortimer's testimony about “a man with a black bag“ (AKA IWEC member Leon Goldstein) as a supposed "suspect" not only makes me wonder if Bachert was on Berner Street "investigating" the murder, but if he wasn't already involved with the WVC in 1888 – for which there is no evidence whatsoever so far though.
I'm also very puzzled by Bachert's involvement in the Coles investigation. And I was wondering, I'm not sure if the IWEC was still located at 40 Berner Street in 1891?
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  #35  
Old 08-01-2012, 12:12 AM
Tom_Wescott Tom_Wescott is offline
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Hi Don. I would say the victims were primarily prostitutes, and supplemented that income by other crimes as well as the occasional honest labor, and of course begging. Sorry to sound so cynical, but that's sure to be closer to the truth for most of them.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott
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  #36  
Old 08-01-2012, 01:50 AM
lynn cates lynn cates is offline
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Hello Maria. Thanks.

"I do agree with Lynn if he sees the Eddowes encounter with her killer as "spur of the moment" soliciting."

He does not. He does not see any soliciting at all that night.

"VERY interested in what you've discovered about the Okhrana hiring local PE agencies to conduct provocatory political crimes. Esp. since the PE who involved himself with obstructing the Stride investigation is on record for claiming involvement in the Parnell case. I'm extremely interested in researching this."

Whilst in Paris, it seems Rachkovski used the services of Henri Bint for his investigative work. Have you run into him when looking at the files for the prefecture?

"As for the Vassiliev story, why “retroactive“? You've mentioned this before, Lynn (without explaining your interpretation), but I totally see it as "proactive" myself."

Well, if I were engineering a "Double Event" for provocatory purposes, I would send a letter to, say, "The Times" dated about 5 October. It would read:

"Dear editor. My name is Piotr Rachkovski. Business for his grace, the Tsar of Russia, detains me in your lovely country.

Like so many people in your beautiful city, I have been appalled at the recent murders taking place in Whitechapel. It seemed that, when the first two murders occurred, I recalled something similar from elsewhere. However, being quite busy in my work, I had forgotten to look into that. But now, with these two most recent murders, I decided to try to find out the source of which I was thinking.

As it turns out, there was a fellow in Russia, an anarchist named Vasilliev, who was known to kill prostitutes and then disembowel them. Later, he went to Paris where he did the same. The last I heard of him, he was coming to England. I wonder if he could be behind these recent murders?

If there is anything that I or my government can do to end these horrible outrages, please let me know. I can supply a file on this dangerous anarchist if requested.

I am, believe me, etc."

Instead, he waits until mid November before he "makes an anarchist" of him.

"Bachert is well-known as the quintessential agitator and fabricator, and he hated the IWEC with a vengeance."

Hence, my interest.

"Bachert's re-using of Ms. Mortimer's testimony about “a man with a black bag“ (AKA IWEC member Leon Goldstein) as a supposed "suspect" not only makes me wonder if Bachert was on Berner Street "investigating" the murder, but if he wasn't already involved with the WVC in 1888 – for which there is no evidence whatsoever so far though."

All good points.

"I'm also very puzzled by Bachert's involvement in the Coles investigation. And I was wondering, I'm not sure if the IWEC was still located at 40 Berner Street in 1891?"

I think they had moved by then. Should be in Rocker.

Cheers.
LC
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  #37  
Old 08-01-2012, 01:52 AM
lynn cates lynn cates is offline
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Hello Tom. Thanks. Missed your post #32. So sorry.

Agree? Well, they were hardly virginal. Prostitutes? At some point, I should think that likely.

The question is, "Which point?"

Cheers.
LC
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  #38  
Old 08-01-2012, 03:09 AM
mariab mariab is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lynn cates View Post
Whilst in Paris, it seems Rachkovski used the services of Henri Bint for his investigative work. Have you run into him when looking at the files for the prefecture?
Unfortunately not, Lynn, as the files I've run into contain info only on the anarchists spied upon rather than the French people spying upon them, but I'll ask French criminologists if anyone has worked on this and where Bint's stuff might have ended up in Paris. (My first guess: Destroyed. And no, it's NOT at the Archives Nationales.) Michel Lesure (the book that Debs discovered at the British Library catalogue and have you sent me) doesn't mention anything about Henri Bint, but then again, I've hardly read everything there is on the matter. Thanks for reminding me, I'll ask around and look it up. Will take until next spring though. (Only then do I get back to Paris.)
Any chance that Bint stuff might be in the Palo Alto papers?


As for the Vassiliev story:
Quote:
Originally Posted by lynn cates View Post
Well, if I were engineering a "Double Event" for provocatory purposes, I would send a letter to, say, "The Times" dated about 5 October. {...} Instead, he waits until mid November before he "makes an anarchist" of him.
Lynn, can you possibly not know about this?

The Times, October 6, 1888, letter by Michael Mack, picked up and published that same day in The Star. There was also a story circulating about a French murderer called Joseph Philippe, see The Evening News of October 12, 1888, first mentioned supposedly in September 1888. (All of this comes courtesy of Paul Begg.) And goes without saying, all of this is completely fictitious/planted.

A FRENCH CHAPTER OF WHITECHAPEL HORRORS.
TO THE EDITOR OF THE TIMES.
Sir, - The terror which has naturally been so widespread among the masses in the districts where the recent shocking murders were committed was intense enough without its being aggravated by the gratuitous theory of the Coroner, that these horrible outrages were not the act of a maniac, but had been coolly committed by a sane person, who wished to earn a few pounds by gratifying the whims of an eccentric American anatomist. It will, no doubt, be found that the idea that Yankee enterprise gave a stimulus to these terrible atrocities is utterly baseless.
For weeks I have been expecting that some one would draw attention to the fact that precisely the same crimes were many years ago committed in Paris, and were ultimately found to have been the acts of a monomaniac.
Last summer, while travelling in France, I picked up and glanced over a French work resembling "Hone's Every Day Book," which gave an account of a remarkable criminal who must have strongly resembled the fiend who has created such consternation in the East-end of London. For months women of the lowest class of "unfortunates" were found murdered and mutilated in a shocking manner. In the poorest districts of the city a "reign of terror" prevailed. The police seemed powerless to afford any help or protection, and in spite of all their watchfulness fresh cases were from time to time reported, all the victims belonging to the same class, and all having been mutilated in the same fiendish way.
At last a girl one night was accosted in the street by a workman, who asked her to take a walk with him. When, by the light of a lamp, she saw his face, it inspired her with a strange feeling of fear and aversion; and it instantly flashed upon her that he must be the murderer. She therefore gave him in charge of the police, who, on inquiry, found that her woman's instinct had accomplished what had baffled the skill and the exertions of all their detectives. The long-sought criminal had been at last found.
It subsequently came to light that he had been impelled to commit these crimes by a brutal form of homicidal monomania. He had sense enough to know that from this class of women being out late at night, and being friendless and unprotected, he could indulge his horrible craze on them with comparative safety and impunity, and he therefore avoided selecting his victims from a more respectable class.
He was convicted and executed, to the great relief of the public; and if any persons were afterwards tempted to imitate him, his prompt punishment effectually deterred them.
This notorious case must be well known to the Parisian police and to thousands of persons in France, and if inquiry is made its history can be easily procured.
No doubt a ruffian like him has turned up in East London, and will be also detected. When he is, we must trust that he will meet with the same stern justice that was meted out to his French prototype.
Yours obediently, MICHAEL MACK


Lynn, is it OK if I kept your Rocker until the winter? Need SO much more research before even contemplating completing my Berner Street piece.
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  #39  
Old 08-01-2012, 05:08 AM
Monty Monty is offline
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We haven't any hard evidence that Eddowes was a prostitute.

No arrest record nor court account as with Stride for example. That, to me, indicates it was more a casual basis than it was with some others.

Monty
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  #40  
Old 08-01-2012, 10:45 AM
lynn cates lynn cates is offline
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Hello Maria. Thanks.

"Any chance that Bint stuff might be in the Palo Alto papers?"

Doubtful. However, there might be a reference to him as a possible source for cooperation. How's your Russian? (heh-heh)

Thanks for that news story. The date and paper bear out my intuitions. But there is one (near fatal) omission--the chap was NOT an anarchist, he was a monomaniac.

Q: If Piotr Rachkovski were in London to do negative PR against Russian Jewish anarchists (and he most certainly was), why wait so long? If he engineered the "Double Event," surely such a story would fit right in with the murders? No, Vasilliev needs to be "an anarchist" much sooner.

Keep the Rocker as long as you like.

Cheers.
LC
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