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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Kosminski, Aaron

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  #101  
Old 12-05-2017, 05:29 PM
Pontius2000 Pontius2000 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Wheat View Post
So what? There's no evidence of Kosminski being violent at any point.
That’s completely false considering there are two documented incidents of him being violent in the scant contemporary documentation about him. It’s also known that he was severely mentally ill, or do you also claim you know more about his mental health status than the contemporary doctors like you claim to know more about his violent tendencies than the contemporary police?
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  #102  
Old 12-05-2017, 06:50 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pontius2000 View Post
That’s completely false considering there are two documented incidents of him being violent in the scant contemporary documentation about him.
If you have the background details of these incidents. Evidence to show Kozminski was violent, and not simply protecting himself (due to his paranoia?), then please share what you know.


Quote:
It’s also known that he was severely mentally ill, or do you also claim you know more about his mental health status than the contemporary doctors like you claim to know more about his violent tendencies than the contemporary police?
Mental illness takes many forms, like eating bread out of the gutter.
Is that a typical trait for a serial killer, in your view?
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  #103  
Old 12-05-2017, 07:27 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
If you have the background details of these incidents. Evidence to show Kozminski was violent, and not simply protecting himself (due to his paranoia?), then please share what you know.




Mental illness takes many forms, like eating bread out of the gutter.
Is that a typical trait for a serial killer, in your view?
Wicker man your a joke. He threatened his sister with a knife and attempted to attack an attendant with a chair. How is that not violent?

Eating bread out of a gutter? How about eating human flesh? Which is crazier? LOL!

You really need to go to bed dude.
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  #104  
Old 12-05-2017, 07:47 PM
Paddy Paddy is offline
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Hi Elmara, 90% is not bad, I am happy with that

Karsten, My theory is that Aaron was looking after the shop at night in Carters Lane. Not sure about who the Butchers row subject was or if it was the same one that Henry followed. It may have been Isenshmidt or Hyams I dont know?

Interestingly there were a Family (all from Poland) of Lipshitz's or something similar (Later Lewis) The father married a Lachman and they lived in Spitalfields I did wonder if these could be relations of Aaron also. I will check it out in a bit...jacobs mother was Ryfka Lachman.

Pat.......

Last edited by Paddy : 12-05-2017 at 07:49 PM.
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  #105  
Old 12-05-2017, 11:36 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
Wicker man your a joke. He threatened his sister with a knife and attempted to attack an attendant with a chair. How is that not violent?
Abby, it only becomes violence when the knife is actually used on the sister and the chair on the warden. Before that, these things are only threats of violence. In a wider sense, it can be said that to threat violence is to make use of the mechanism of violence, of course - but it is not applying violence per se. The possibility remains that Kosminski would never have been able to apply it at all.

I´m sure you have seen movies where the heroine points a gun at somebody, and that somebody says "Go ahead, shoot me!", knowing full well that this will never happen. It could well be that the knife and chair were about the same thing: threatening. It can serve the same purpose as actual violence, and it offers up a possibility for many people who are actually not able/likely to transfer the threat into action.

Last edited by Fisherman : 12-05-2017 at 11:44 PM.
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  #106  
Old 12-05-2017, 11:47 PM
Darryl Kenyon Darryl Kenyon is offline
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If Kosminski was the Butcher's row suspect, and he had sole occupancy of that property at night, it could explain the time discrepancy from Mitre Square to Goulston street. IE he used that property as a bolt hole, cleaned himself up and disposed of the kidney etc [ what better place than a butchers ], forgot about the apron potion in his pocket and threw it in the doorway on his way home. It would be tempting to think he used Carter Lane that night, but the time scale might be a tad tight. It would also be tempting to think he was known to be at the IWEC that night, and then Lawende identified him at a later date. Two murder sites, one night, you could possibly see why he was seen as a prime suspect.
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  #107  
Old 12-06-2017, 12:11 AM
Darryl Kenyon Darryl Kenyon is offline
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According to Google maps it takes around half hour to walk from 51 Carter lane to Goulston st. So the timescale 1:35 to 2:55 is possible. Just a thought if he was hurrying along through Aldgate and a City PC, without knowledge of Kate's murder might have known/stopped him. Hence the City PC evidence. Not at the murder site as such but enough to put him in the vicinity especially if he was at the working men's club that night.
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  #108  
Old 12-06-2017, 03:32 AM
S.Brett S.Brett is offline
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Hi Pat!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy View Post
Interestingly there were a Family (all from Poland) of Lipshitz's or something similar (Later Lewis) The father married a Lachman and they lived in Spitalfields I did wonder if these could be relations of Aaron also. I will check it out in a bit...jacobs mother was Ryfka Lachman.
Interesting! Lipshitz... sounds familiar... mmh...

The dissolution of the partnership was July 17, 1891. Rob House wrote: "short-lived". No idea whether the Cohen/Davies/Abrahams Company did exist at the time of the murders. Of course, it would be possible that there was a connection to 51 Carter Lane in 1888. Sometimes I think that Aaron Kozminski/ Abrahams also used the name Aaron Davis Cohen (the names of his "friends"). It is speculation, of course, but would it be possible that the police found a man they thought it is Aaron Kozminski/ Abrahams (Aaron Davis Cohen)? And hours later, when they learned it is a mistake, they changed his name in David Cohen?

Henry Cox stated: "The man we suspected was about five feet six inches in height, with short, black, curly hair, and he had a habit of taking late walks abroad. He occupied several shops in the East End, but from time to time he became insane, and was forced to spend a portion of his time in an asylum in Surrey."

Sagar said: "We had good reason to suspect a certain man who worked in 'Butcher's-row,' Aldgate,"

In the case of Cox, this suspect worked and lived in a shop/house. Sagar wrote "worked" there. But Cox stated: "He occupied several shops" (one of them in Leman Street?) and "had a habit of taking late walks abroad". If Sagar´s suspect only worked there other officers had to watch him at his home. Henry?

Sims described Kosminski as a:

"Polish Jew of curious habits and strange disposition, who was the sole occupant of certain premises in Whitechapel after nightfall" ...

Henry Cox: You can imagine that never once did we allow him to quit our sight... It is indeed very strange that as soon as this madman was put under observation, the mysterious crimes ceased, and that very soon he removed from his usual haunts and gave up his nightly prowls

Sagar: We watched him carefully... There was no doubt that this man was insane, and after a time his friends thought it advisable to have him removed to a private asylum. After he was removed there were no more Ripper atrocities

Henry´s madman gave up his nightly prowls and the crimes ceased, Sagar´s insane man was removed to a private asylum and there were no more Ripper atrocities. Men who were watched by day and night it reminds me of Swanson´s "watched by police (City CID) by day & night"/ "Kosminski was the suspect".



Sagar: A police officer/ police-constable met a well-known man of Jewish appearance/ well dressed coming out of the court near the square.

Sims/Macnaghten: "The policeman who got a glimpse of Jack in Mitre Court said, when some time afterwards he saw the Pole, that he was the height and build of the man he had seen on the night of the murder"

Probably this Pole (Kosminski) was the man of whom Sagar said: "we watched him carefully".

Butchers Row, not far from Mitre Square, could have been Kosminski´s destination after the Stride murder if he had worked there.

Sagar: The officers were wearing indiarubber boots, and the retreating footsteps of a man could be clearly heard. The sounds were followed to King's-block in the model dwellings in Stoney-lane, but we did not see the man again that night.

Very possible a man like DC Halse (or one of his colleagues/City Police) heard the footsteps of a man. If I am right, it was at 2.00am when DC Halse arrived in Mitre Square, 15 minutes after PC Watkins had discovered the body of Eddowes. Maybe it was impossible for Kosminski to enter Aldgate High Street after the Eddowes murder and he had to wait somewhere near the crime scene. After a time it could have been easier to escape via Goulston Street, Somerset Street, Little Somerset Street and Harrow Alley. The latter street led to the rear of the Butchers Row.
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  #109  
Old 12-06-2017, 04:45 AM
S.Brett S.Brett is offline
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It is interesting that we find Sagar "about March 1889" (when "Kosminski" was removed to a lunatic asylum/Macnaghten) near the Butchers Row

Times, 3 April 1889:

Detective Sergeant Pentin had followed a suspicious character who entered 5 Duke Street, and was able to "communicate with" Sagar, who helped him to search the premises and arrest the man.

If I am correct, between 5 Duke Street and the first Butchers Row- shop were 100 metres.

Shortly before Aaron Kozminski was admitted to Colney Hatch (February 1891) we find Sagar again opposite Butchers Row when he was on duty in Bull Inn Yard.

It would be possible that Jacob Cohen took Aaron Kozminski to a private asylum about March 1889, and again he took Aaron Kozminski to the infirmary in February 1891.

In the case of Kosminski, maybe the police did the same work at the end of 1890/ beginning of 1891 (when Kosminski was identified by the Seaside Home witness) as they already did at the end of 1888/ beginning of 1889. That does not mean Sagar had seen this man in Butchers Row in 1890/91 again. A shop in Butchers Row could have been one of Komsinski´s previous premises (that was watched again) but he did not return.
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  #110  
Old 12-06-2017, 09:43 AM
John Wheat John Wheat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pontius2000 View Post
That’s completely false considering there are two documented incidents of him being violent in the scant contemporary documentation about him. It’s also known that he was severely mentally ill, or do you also claim you know more about his mental health status than the contemporary doctors like you claim to know more about his violent tendencies than the contemporary police?
Mentally ill people can have violent outbursts but you need much more to prove he was Jack. I don't claim to no more about him than the contemporary police all I pointed out is that the contemporary police didn't come close to catching Jack.
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