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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Doctors and Coroners

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  #11  
Old 12-13-2010, 02:16 AM
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The Grave Maurice The Grave Maurice is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glyndwr View Post
Dr. Rees Llewellyn (correct Welsh spelling should be Rhys Llewelyn) was a gynaecologist whose office was close to where Nichols (victim #2) was found.
Well, the name we have in the historical record is Rees. He may have changed it from Rhys, but we don't know that. And calling Nichols the second victim might also attract some flak around here.

If you want some advice from a fellow Canuck, tread warily until you're sure of your ground. Oh, and welcome to the boards, bach.

Nice shots, Lech. Thanks.

Last edited by The Grave Maurice : 12-13-2010 at 02:20 AM.
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  #12  
Old 12-13-2010, 05:11 AM
protohistorian protohistorian is offline
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I am assuming that by close you mean 538 feet. In that distance, just on Whitechapel road, there are 4 other surgeons listed in the directory. In the attached photo, that space contains all listings between the red lines. Dave
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  #13  
Old 01-04-2011, 12:07 AM
Lechmere Lechmere is offline
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I think Llewellyn's house and surgery was where it says RJM in the photo.
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  #14  
Old 01-08-2012, 11:07 AM
Dave O Dave O is offline
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Here's an interesting case of poisoning from Dr. Macdonald's records that features Dr. Llewellyn.

The deceased was a 40 year old traveller named James Dowling, who died at 12 Pereira Street, Bethnal Green, on June 15 1888. Llewellyn was called to the scene. The inquest was held at the Whittington and Cat, also in Bethnal Green, on the 18th of June. (LMA/MJ/SPC/NE/12a and 12b from Box 1).

In the request for a warrant to hold an inquest, coroner's officer J.W. Burrows wrote "William Manning of 12 Pereira St proves finding the deceased man dead in bed-he had given way to drink very heavily for some time past-he had a fit some 12 months prior to death + thinks he may have died in another"

Burrows added that "Dr. Llewellyn states that when the body was being laid out poison was found in the bed + he thinks a post mortem necessary + if one is ordered he thinks it advisable to be done as early as possible"

Testimony from the inquest (I believe written in Burrows' hand):

"William Manning a wall paper dealer of 12 Pereira St the deceased James Dowling lodged at my house for about 9 years he drank heavily for the last 8 or 9 months and on Friday at 2 am I gave him some milk and soda and at 7.30 the same morning I found him dead."

"Eliza Manning I am landlady at 12 Pereira Street the deceased has lodged with me for 11 years and drank very [heavily] for a long time past and on friday morning my husband found him dead a doctor was sent for and a man named Currey living in gun Street Spitalfields and he took away a quantity of letters + papers and [Ģ1.8] shillings ['+ sixpence' inserted] in money and when he was laid out a bottle labeled poison was found just under his left arm which was sent to the Doc."

Further testimony (in Macdonald's hand):

"Alfred Currie general dealer of 29 Gun St. He took a great deal of drink. He told me on Monday he felt bad. He told me six months ago he used to have to take a sleeping draught"

"Rees Ralph Llewellyn L.R.C.P. M.R.C.S. of 152 Whitechapel Rd called at 7.40 on Friday [went] found body lying on the right side almost prone with face pinned against the wall. I turned it over smelt prussic acid Skin was white lips livid nails blue rigor mortis well developed. froth about the mouth. features distorted, a little [vomit like] milk in the chamber. I searched the room . . a bottle was afterwards brought to me by the landlady which smells of prussic acid. I believe he took cyanide of potassium as I found a similar fluid in the stomach which smelt also of prussic acid. I made a P.M. and found the brain very congested. remains of old + recent inflammation slight haemorrahages in the substance of it. There was no smell of prussic acid in the brain. The stomach was very much congested [The] contents smelt of prussic acid. It contained 2 ounces of fluid. [The mucous] membrane was stained. Lungs were very congested and emphysematous. Heart dilated on [‘one’ inserted] side [‘right’ inserted] contracted [‘contracted’ repeated in next line] on the other. Kidneys large, congested. Liver very large cirrhosis commencing. Spleen congested. Death was caused by poisoning by prussic acid taken as cyanide of potassium.”

A fifth witness with the surname of Lee is indicated in the expenses of the inquest, but no testimony from this person survives in the record (perhaps in a press account?).

The jury's verdict was "poisoning by cyanide of potassium while in a fit of temporary insanity."

Dave

Last edited by Dave O : 01-08-2012 at 11:35 AM.
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  #15  
Old 01-14-2012, 02:21 PM
Mrs. Fiddymont Mrs. Fiddymont is offline
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Sorry, I know this is totally off-topic but I can't resist! I do a lot of genealogy and you get pretty familiar with associating names with places. I can guarantee you that anyone with a name like Rees/Rhys/Whatever Llewellyn is Welsh--or at least of Welsh ancestry!

I have a number of Welsh ancestors myself. One of my favorites is due simply to his name: Rice Price!

What's even funnier is when I try to google his name. Took me forever to figure out why I kept getting stock exchange information!!

Gotta love those Welsh names!

Okay...back to business now.
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  #16  
Old 07-29-2012, 10:18 PM
Austin Austin is offline
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I am a bit confused here, and maybe it is just because I have not read deep enough into other of the many sources of information. So I would be grateful if some one here would be so kind as to explain something.

Is it Dr. Rees Ralph Llewellyn, or Dr. Henry Llewellyn?

Were there two Dr. Llewellyns associated with the murder investigations?
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  #17  
Old 07-29-2012, 11:26 PM
lynn cates lynn cates is offline
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Hello Austin. The former is better. There are about 3 different names for him in the various papers. (And I daresay it was Rhys before it was Rees.)

Cheers.
LC
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  #18  
Old 11-06-2014, 03:45 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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We know from the records that as Llewellyn arrived at the scene in Buckīs Row, he did not notice the wounds to the abdomen. He did, however, see the gashes in the neck, and how deep they went. They would have killed anybody instantly, there can not have been any doubt about that at any stage.

So as Llewellyn packed his stuff into his bag after having taken his first look at Nichols, he must have been sure that what had killed her was the cut throat.

Then Spratling finds, in the mortuary, that Nichols has had her stomach ripped open, and Dr Llwellyn is once again called for. He arrives at the mortuary for his second examination somewhere around 5.30.

So one hour and twenty minutes, roughly, has passed, since Llewellyn first saw the body, and it has been lifted off the pavemnet, it has been wheeled to the mortuary and it has been put on the slab there.

And now Llewellyn decides that the abdominal wound preceded the cuts to the throat. In a state where the blood levels would have been altered and much if not all of the blood would have coagulated.

Is there any medically trained person out there who will venture a guess what it could have been that made Llewellyn change his mind - as he must have?

My own take is that he thought that there had been so little bloood under the neck, and that Llewellyn concluded that this must have own to the cuts to the stomach, that would have killed Nichols. After that, there would not have been any pressure in the veins of the neck, and only a small amount would have seeped out that way, whereas the abdominal cavity would have held the main part of the blood.

Could it have been anything else that prompted Llewellyns decision? And must he have been wrong?

The best,
Fisherman
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  #19  
Old 11-06-2014, 05:11 AM
Lechmere Lechmere is offline
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That is my take on it also.
It is unclear in my opinion whether the stomach wounds came first or not.
I think Llewellyn was also influenced by the greater quantity of blood that seaped into the clothing under the abdomun.
It was further confused by the cause of death possibly being strangulation, with the signs of that partially obliterated by the throat wounds.
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  #20  
Old 11-06-2014, 05:36 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lechmere View Post
That is my take on it also.
It is unclear in my opinion whether the stomach wounds came first or not.
I think Llewellyn was also influenced by the greater quantity of blood that seaped into the clothing under the abdomun.
It was further confused by the cause of death possibly being strangulation, with the signs of that partially obliterated by the throat wounds.
Hereīs what Iīm thinking (and of course, I am trying to shoehorn things into Lechmere being the guily party, as always!)

It is often said that the gap between Tabram and Nichols is hard to bridge, seeing as Tabram was a "frenzied" deed, while the Ripper deeds followed a ready-made pattern: a quick overpowering of the victim, arguably involving partial strangulation - down on the ground the victim goes - zip goes the throat - the bloodspurt is directed away from the perp - and then itīs evisceration time.

Letīs go with the notion of Tabram being a frenzied deed (which has itīs limitations since it was apparently a very quiet deed too). What does the killer do?
He overpowers Tabram, and he partially strangles her (her fists were clenched when found). He gets her on the ground, and he goes berserk with a smallish knife. He manages to target all the vital organs, and he adds stabs to the genital area. One of the wounds is a cut to "the lower abdomen" - arguably a euphemism for the genital area. Tabram lives through the ordeal, according to Killeen, but then she is dealt a coup de grace by means of a thrust to the heart.

Letīs compare to this suggested scenario of Nicholsī death:
He overpowers Nichols, and he partially strangles her (her tongue was lacerated). He gets her on the ground and he goes berserk with a knife. According to Llewellyn, he targets all the vital organs. He adds stabs to the genital area. He cuts her abdomen open.
Then he hears another man approaching - Robert Paul. The killer decides to not take the risk that the victim could be alive and able to say something, so he delivers the coup de grace by severing her throat deeply. The first cut does not travel as deep as he wants to, so that he ensures cutting the windpipe and all possibilities to communicate. Therefore he delivers a second, deeper cut.

As Llewellyns states, the damage done to the abdominal area had already killed the victim, so as the killer cuts the neck, the pressure of the veins has gone. No blood spurts out, it instead slowly trickles out through the severed bloodvessels in the neck.

As the newcomer arrives, the killer takes him over to the corpse and bluffs him. At this stage, the neck has only been cut for perhaps some twenty-thirty seconds, so the pool of blood forming under her neck is still very small and cannot be seen by Paul from above. The abdomen is covered by the clothing, obscuring the other wounds, and Paul cannot see anything out of the order.

When Neil arrives to the spot, minutes later, the pool of blood has grown in size and can readily be seen from above.

This would put the Tabram deed and the Nichols deed very much on par with each other, plus it would explain why Paul could not see any blood at all on the spot. It may also explain how the neck-cutting trademark came about, a trait that was elevated to first priority henceforth since it would ensure silence and death.

The best,
Fisherman

Last edited by Fisherman : 11-06-2014 at 06:01 AM.
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