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  #31  
Old 05-20-2017, 10:01 AM
Richard Patterson Richard Patterson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flower and Dean View Post
Well, it's disappointing that I'm the only one whose post was ignored.

Harry D makes some very good points. We just don't know with absolute certainty if JtR had any medical skills and if so, to what extent. Even if you do subscribe to the idea that the Ripper must 100% have had prior training in human surgery or the like, that still doesn't narrow it down too much. Thompson couldn't have been the only one in the area with such training as people digging up other possible suspects who fit this profile show.

The scalpel seems odd at first sight but you mention that Thompson was using it to shave. As different as Victorian instruments were, this presumably means this scalpel was relatively small and not the same size as the weapon(s) used by the Ripper. Unless Thompson just had a lot of skills and courage about shaving with a large, sharp knife...

Again, I don't really see in the poem what you've mentioned as a red flag for you. To be sure, any undergraduate could talk for hours about the tropes and anxiety it reflects about female sexuality. Yet, this is also true of many artists of the time period and I doubt we had dozens of artists who also happened to be serial killers.

I agree with your point about looking at the big picture. On the face of it, Thompson looks like at least a potentially interesting figure to look into. It just sounds like some of the things you're zooming in on don't back up your argument as definitely as you seem to think they do.
Sorry, but the reason I did not reply to you is that for all the others I could refrain from the usual response of someone who has published suspect work, which is read the book, but for your remark I can only tell you to read the book. For you, though, I will contradict myself and remark on what you have said.

Scalpel’s back then were considerably longer, this was because they were not the precision instruments we have today and often the vivisectionist was called upon to perform cruder, and more general work with less instruments. I can see arguments on how a scalpel alone was probably insufficient to cause or the wounding on the victims, (saying this I have been shown documentation where I complete dissection can be made with a scalpel alone) When Francis studied as a surgeon, 3 times over, he would not have had a scalpel alone, but he would have possessed, like all medical students, a surgical kit. A scalpel would have been only one of several cutting blades in this kit. Since we know he kept a razor sharp scalpel and only because he told us so, it stands to reason he may have kept his kit. Many surgical kits were housed in small wooden boxes or even leather pouches that folded so that they could easily be carried.

As to there being many people who possessed medical skill and training in the area of Whitechapel. I am sure may have been a hundred or more people, but Thompson, most probably alone, had specific training of organ removal, training that was unheard of back then to most medical men. Thompson was a student of Owen’s college, Manchester, which taught, what was back then, a new technique of organ removal. Most surgeons in the area would not have been taught such a technique. Yet, the Ripper, is well known for removing organs. If you asked all who lived in Spitalfields, who were trained surgeons, if they had been taught a technique of removing organs, I am more than confident that only Thompson would have raised his hand. I detail Thompson’s very specific medical training in my book. Read my book.

As to the poem, which you see differently to me, The only reason I bring it up here is that it was written before the Ripper murders, which shows that the Ripper murders did not inspire our Spitalfields poet, which some critics have said to dismiss it.

If you were to read my book and saw the breadth and extent of Thompson’s similar writing of violence, organ removal and slaughter, particularly of prostitutes and women, you would find that this particular poem fades into a very minor point when casting suspicion against him. There being such a preponderance of blood filled writing from Thompson, in the form of poems, stories, plays and essays.

Not withstanding that Thompson more than once confessed that his writing was not the product of some artistic expression, but reflections of actual events in his life.

You will notice that in the samples of reviews on my book that speak of the strength of it none of them even mention the poem ‘The Nightmare of the Witch Babies.’ This is not because the poem is any less damming but that it merges into the vivid diorama of similar writing from him.

I will end by urging you to read my book and then ask that you come back and tell me about how you still think that the most Thompson did is only write about his anxiety on female sexuality. Can you see now why I did not respond?

Thanks for telling me that Harry D makes some good points, however I am disappointed that you have not said the same for me. Oh well.
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  #32  
Old 05-20-2017, 11:20 AM
Flower and Dean Flower and Dean is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Patterson View Post
Scalpel’s back then were considerably longer, this was because they were not the precision instruments we have today and often the vivisectionist was called upon to perform cruder, and more general work with less instruments. I can see arguments on how a scalpel alone was probably insufficient to cause or the wounding on the victims, (saying this I have been shown documentation where I complete dissection can be made with a scalpel alone)
Yes, but would they really have been the size of the blade(s) used in the murders? Because like I said, the fact that he used it to shave points against it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Patterson View Post
When Francis studied as a surgeon, 3 times over, he would not have had a scalpel alone, but he would have possessed, like all medical students, a surgical kit. A scalpel would have been only one of several cutting blades in this kit. Since we know he kept a razor sharp scalpel and only because he told us so, it stands to reason he may have kept his kit. Many surgical kits were housed in small wooden boxes or even leather pouches that folded so that they could easily be carried.
This is a good point, but that he could have kept the whole kit even after he'd fallen on hard times is only a possibility. It seems just as possible that he would have sold most of those tools or otherwise been unable to carry them around.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Patterson View Post
As to there being many people who possessed medical skill and training in the area of Whitechapel. I am sure may have been a hundred or more people, but Thompson, most probably alone, had specific training of organ removal, training that was unheard of back then to most medical men. Thompson was a student of Owen’s college, Manchester, which taught, what was back then, a new technique of organ removal. Most surgeons in the area would not have been taught such a technique. Yet, the Ripper, is well known for removing organs. If you asked all who lived in Spitalfields, who were trained surgeons, if they had been taught a technique of removing organs, I am more than confident that only Thompson would have raised his hand. I detail Thompson’s very specific medical training in my book. Read my book.
Absolutely nothing about the medical reports indicate that the way in which the organs was strangely specific like you describe. The most specific it gets IIRC is that the killer seemed to know how to do things like remove a kidney. If it differed substantially from "regular" medical techniques to remove organs, I expect this would have stood out a lot more.

I'm also not sure on what basis you claim that very few men would have known how to remove organs -- especially if you consider the possibility that the killer may not have had any expertise in human surgery after all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Patterson View Post
If you were to read my book and saw the breadth and extent of Thompson’s similar writing of violence, organ removal and slaughter, particularly of prostitutes and women, you would find that this particular poem fades into a very minor point when casting suspicion against him. There being such a preponderance of blood filled writing from Thompson, in the form of poems, stories, plays and essays.
I have read other works by Thompson. I'm not saying that whoever the Ripper was, if he had any literary inclination, that he couldn't have written gruesome things. On the other hand, Thompson's writings are hardly "proof". I find it very hard to swallow arguments -- not just yours -- pointing to this or that person based on their work, especially when the subject matter isn't particularly unique given the time period or less disputed facts about the artist's life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Patterson View Post
You will notice that in the samples of reviews on my book that speak of the strength of it none of them even mention the poem ‘The Nightmare of the Witch Babies.’ This is not because the poem is any less damming but that it merges into the vivid diorama of similar writing from him.

I will end by urging you to read my book and then ask that you come back and tell me about how you still think that the most Thompson did is only write about his anxiety on female sexuality. Can you see now why I did not respond?
I guessed "The Nightmare of the Witch Babies" based on this. It's hardly a poem about "cutting women's stomachs open" as much as you seem to refer to it. Or were you talking about a different one?

And no, I can't see why you initially didn't respond as my first post in this thread didn't mention any anxiety on female sexuality. I simply stated that I'm clearly not reading it the way you are (and my main reason for that is what I just stated above, not that it's "just" about anxiety over female sexuality).

Thanks for addressing my points, at least.
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  #33  
Old 05-20-2017, 08:32 PM
Roy Corduroy Roy Corduroy is offline
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Good evening Richard,

Congratulations on your new book. I read the good review from Paul Begg.
I'm going to get your book and read it, then come back to discuss again.

Roy
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  #34  
Old 05-21-2017, 04:11 AM
Richard Patterson Richard Patterson is offline
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Please enjoy my book Ron, and come back to discuss it when you have finished. It would be good to discuss here the book and not just the theory. Then I know we will all be on a level playing field.
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  #35  
Old 05-21-2017, 04:45 AM
Richard Patterson Richard Patterson is offline
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Default The Corpus Christi Caller-Times, Review

My book has begun to make news in the United States. The Corpus Christi Caller-Times, a Texan newspaper, with a readership of around 55,000 daily, has just released this article. Here is some of it and a link to the full article.

‘Thanks to a marvelously researched book by Australian author and sleuth Richard Patterson and the help of Dr. Joseph Rupp, former Nueces County Medical Examiner, we may have uncovered the truth behind the ghastly murders of five women (and maybe more) between April and November 1888 in London. We now know whom Jack the Ripper is (was). Patterson’s book and Rupp’s chapter and introduction within the book argue that the Ripper is renowned English poet Francis Thompson. … Yet, it must have been his genius that helped him write the insightful words and escape capture from authorities for the appalling murders he must have committed. Patterson and Rupp are so convincing in their writings that readers of this book may agree that the 130-year-old mystery of the London murders has been solved.’

http://www.caller.com/story/life/col...per/101885952/
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  #36  
Old 05-21-2017, 11:08 PM
John G John G is offline
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Thompson, of course, had a history of starting fires. It's worth noting that this is a common trait of serial killers, such a David Berkowitz, for example.
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  #37  
Old 05-22-2017, 08:02 AM
Pcdunn Pcdunn is offline
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Well posted, Flower and Dean.

Yes, the "Nightmare of the Witch Babies" poem you linked to elsewhere on Casebook is the poem Mr. Patterson was referring to. I think it came from an opium dream, frankly.

I think we need to remember that Thompson attended six years of medical school because his father was a doctor who wanted him to follow in his footsteps, and that Thompson kept failing to pass his medical exams, so he stayed longer in medical school. He, apparently, had no real interest in becoming a doctor, and eventually simply left.
How that translates to being an experienced surgeon, who could use a special, newly-invented form of surgery, is beyond me.

Another point, Thompson didn't write about his anxiety about female sexuality, he wrote about his discovering God. He is a renowned English Catholic poet and writer, and the rhetoric he uses in his social awareness prose is not unusual for the time-period.
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  #38  
Old 05-22-2017, 02:36 PM
Richard Patterson Richard Patterson is offline
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You are simply regurgitating the same old myths.

How do you know "Night of the Witch Babies" was simply an opium dream?

How do you know his father wanted him to follow in his footsteps?

How do you know he had no real interest in becoming a doctor or even if he had not no interest in his medical studies?

How do you know his rhetoric was not unusual for the time-period?

My book gives evidence that dispels all these myths. Each one is tackled and shown to be simply hearsay given by others after Thompson's death.

You are just giving opinion, and there is nothing wrong with that, but you are scant on any factual basis for your statements. Read my book Pcdunn then see if you can say the same.
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  #39  
Old 05-22-2017, 05:41 PM
Pcdunn Pcdunn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Patterson View Post
You are simply regurgitating the same old myths.

How do you know "Night of the Witch Babies" was simply an opium dream?

How do you know his father wanted him to follow in his footsteps?

How do you know he had no real interest in becoming a doctor or even if he had not no interest in his medical studies?

How do you know his rhetoric was not unusual for the time-period?

My book gives evidence that dispels all these myths. Each one is tackled and shown to be simply hearsay given by others after Thompson's death.

You are just giving opinion, and there is nothing wrong with that, but you are scant on any factual basis for your statements. Read my book Pcdunn then see if you can say the same.
Oh, for Heaven's sake, Mr. Patterson, the information about Thompson's family and background, including his failed attempts at becoming a doctor-- as well as a Catholic priest-- are in those encyclopedia articles I linked to in an earlier post.
You know, I hope, that encyclopedias rely on facts, not myths.

I'm a Catholic, and a librarian, and have read other articles from the Victorian time period, and I feel reasonably sure that his writing about the poor of Spitalfields and Whitechapel and how awful the life was for the children is in keeping with the period

However, I will admit that the comment that his poem about the "witch-babies" stemmed from an opium dream is a guess, but it is an educated one, given that we know he was an addict.
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Von Konigswald: Jack the Ripper plays shuffleboard. -- Happy Birthday, Wanda June by Kurt Vonnegut, c.1970.
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  #40  
Old 05-22-2017, 07:02 PM
harry harry is offline
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Thompson was also a very keen cricket follower.He wrote a poem of a match between two county cricket teams.Gloucestershire and I believe Lanckashire.
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