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  #11  
Old 02-07-2011, 04:44 PM
Graham Graham is offline
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Hi Caz,

Miller says that JH told his defence that he knew a man called Aspinall in Liverpool who was a fence, so presumably implying that he'd done biz with him before. JH said that Aspinall lived in Carlton Avenue or Tarleton Avenue. Note he said avenue, not street or road. He said he took a bus from Lime Street station along the Scotland Road, claiming that a woman he asked told him that that was where Carlton Avenue was. Note that he was asking for Carlton not Tarlton Avenue, according to what he said.

He said he went into a sweetshop opposite a cinema and asked for Carlton or Tarlton Avenue. There was he said a woman and a girl. He was told there was no Carlton Avenue anywhere near. He said the woman took him to the door of the shop and showed him a bus-stop. Now he says he asks them (but not sure who 'them' is) for Talbot Road and Cartlon Road. The woman (presumably the woman in the shop, although this isn't clear) told him where he was - Bank Hall. He then told his defence that he didn't get to Carlton Road beccause he couldn't find the street.

All a bit mixed up and confusing, changing the names of the streets/roads/avenues in his rambling statement to his defence.

Graham
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  #12  
Old 02-07-2011, 04:58 PM
Victor Victor is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caz View Post
What I'm really after is how Hanratty described the whole scenario of asking for those directions. Did he mention asking in a sweet shop?
Hi Caz,

Yes he did mention the sweetshop.

Quote:
People want it both ways: unfair if his recognisably Cockney accent set him up on the id parade; unfair if it was so unrecognisably Cockney that a Scouser took it as Welsh or Scottish.
Like so much of this case!

Quote:
It was bad enough showing just the one photo to Mrs Dinwoodie (I don't think it would be admissible today)
That was the police's fault though! It's hard to penalise the alibi when the police balls'ed up the ID like this.

Quote:
Another reason why Hanratty should have mentioned it much sooner if he really went on to Rhyl that night and needed someone he saw there - just one would have done - to be able to confirm it before the media circus got going.
That's the major problem with "ambush alibi's", only this time it backfired.

KR,
Vic.
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  #13  
Old 02-07-2011, 05:07 PM
Victor Victor is offline
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Whether he [Dr Evison] was the defence expert or not - how could he 'seem to accept' something that is not actually able to be established according to current scientific knowledge?
Hi Julie,

The proof that sperm can be detected seperately from other sources of DNA is most of the way down this article -> http://www.scientific.org/tutorials/...ley/riley.html

KR,
Vic.
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Truth is female, since truth is beauty rather than handsomeness; this [...] would certainly explain the saying that a lie could run around the world before Truth has got its, correction, her boots on, since she would have to chose which pair - the idea that any woman in a position to choose would have just one pair of boots being beyond rational belief.
Unseen Academicals - Terry Pratchett.
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  #14  
Old 02-07-2011, 05:20 PM
babybird67 babybird67 is offline
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Default yes Vic

that is really what clinches the DNA for me...

1/ that it was found in a distribution typical of intercourse having taken place;

and

2/ that not only would contamination have had to occur, for which there is absolutely no evidence, but that an equally if not more improbable act of total eradication of the 'real' rapist's DNA would also have had to occur.

As someone much more au fait with the science than me, can you tell me if this is impossible according to the laws of physics or just extremely, exceptionally, completely unlikely.
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  #15  
Old 02-07-2011, 05:28 PM
Derrick Derrick is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caz View Post
It was bad enough showing just the one photo to Mrs Dinwoodie (I don't think it would be admissible today) but if she could already have seen a single photo of JH in the media it could have been a classic case of getting two occasions mixed up: recognising JH from a very recent media picture and honestly thinking she was recognising the man who, some time previously, had come into her shop. There's no going back if something like this could have happened and it's a very common problem with eye witness testimony.
Hi Caz
No pictures of Hanratty appeared in the media until after his conviction.
During the trial the defence had to apply to the judge to allow a photograph of Hanratty to be taken within the court grounds so that they could further investigate the Rhyl alibi.
Derrick
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  #16  
Old 02-07-2011, 06:12 PM
Derrick Derrick is offline
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Originally Posted by Victor View Post
Hi Julie,

The proof that sperm can be detected seperately from other sources of DNA is most of the way down this article -> http://www.scientific.org/tutorials/...ley/riley.html

KR,
Vic.
Hi Vic

From the section you mentioned in the article you linked to above is the following;

Quote:
The description of this procedure so far is quite ideal. It works pretty much as described for fresh samples. Even with fresh samples however, some of the non-sperm DNA will be trapped in the sperm pellet. This can be a major problem if the amount of sperm is very low or if the samples are aged and degraded. Often male cells, most likely immature sperm or white cells may end up in the supernatant, variously called the “female” fraction or “non-sperm” fraction.
That is why Budowle, Krane et al keep banging on about the inability to infer the tissue source of DNA when using LCN type techniques.

Derrick
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  #17  
Old 02-07-2011, 06:20 PM
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caz caz is offline
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Hi Graham,

Thanks for your very detailed answer.

Hanratty's own account is not only mixed up and confusing; it's a total mess.

Now that in itself may not be Hanratty's fault. It's not always easy for people not facing a rape and murder charge to cast their mind back and give a confidently accurate account of where they were going, what they were doing and why on any particular occasion.

But Hanratty must have known he was not doing too well with his Liverpool account, even if he was hoping and expecting the good people he bumped into there to offer sufficient confirmation of his presence. So the question remains, and must have remained in the minds of the jury, the defence, the prosecution, and everyone else involved: why not mention, at that time, the hours he allegedly spent going to Rhyl, staying in Rhyl, talking to the good people there, and travelling back down south again afterwards? It makes absolutely no sense unless he only thought of it later, when Liverpool had gone tits up for him. The more places he went to, and the more people who saw him or spoke to him, the better, in the life or death situation he knew he was in, the moment he knew he was being sought in connection with the A6 murder.

Hi Derrick,

Ah, thanks for this. I suspected that might be the case but wasn't sure. Then the defence totally ballsed things up if they added to an innocent Hanratty's stupidity of keeping silent about Rhyl, by showing just this photo to potential Rhyl witnesses (and possibly asking leading questions) instead of showing them a dozen photos to see if they recognised anyone and could describe the circumstances unaided (ie without giving away any hints about who, where or when).

Sadly for Hanratty, the fatal flaws were in no way limited to the prosecution's case against him. I've said it before and I'll say it again. If it hadn't been for bad luck this man would have had no luck at all. A thousand ways his skin could and should have been saved if he didn't commit that crime. And I have yet to hear of a workable scenario in which anyone trying to set him up from the beginning could have had a realistic hope of succeeding - and succeeding so well.

Even if the DNA identifications (of JH, VS and MG) can be dismissed as unreliable (or JH's the result of contamination, which I believe you have disputed, on the grounds that it would first need to be confirmed as JH's?) the specific results were still gobsmackingly unlucky and unlikely, in the event that someone other than JH was the rapist. If Agatha Christie had come up with such a story, with such an ending, and made Poirot announce that someone other than JH dunnit, her most loyal readers would have groaned and concluded she had gone gaga.

Love,

Caz
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Last edited by caz : 02-07-2011 at 06:32 PM.
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  #18  
Old 02-07-2011, 06:21 PM
Limehouse Limehouse is offline
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Originally Posted by Victor View Post
Hi Julie,

The proof that sperm can be detected seperately from other sources of DNA is most of the way down this article -> http://www.scientific.org/tutorials/...ley/riley.html

KR,
Vic.
Thank you Vic - but the article does very little to convince me that the method of testing on the Hanratty/Storie items was reliable. In fact - the article does much to describe how many problems can be caused by testing degraded or particularly small amounts of DNA.
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  #19  
Old 02-07-2011, 06:44 PM
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caz caz is offline
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Hi Limehouse,

But I imagine the problems that can be caused would relate more to results that are clearly ambiguous, or less than conclusive, or difficult to interpret with total accuracy, or where the rest of the case evidence, or the original conviction, points in another direction.

When they looked at those results in the context of the rape victim's testimony and stated certainty, when confronted with the man who couldn't prove he was elsewhere and went on to be convicted, there was little to be called into question. It all fitted. Had anything not fitted, Hanratty might still not have been proved innocent, but we can be sure the appeal would have had a very different ending.

Love,

Caz
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  #20  
Old 02-07-2011, 07:32 PM
Natalie Severn Natalie Severn is offline
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Originally Posted by babybird67 View Post
As far as I can remember, Caz, the details themselves did not match in any respect. Mrs Dinwoodie describes someone who spoke with either a Welsh or Scottish aceent; it doesn't matter how much anyone tries to twist that, neither of those accents resembles a London accent in any way.

Mrs Dinwoodie also said she herself was too busy and barely spoke to him anyway, and other customers took him to the door and pointed out a bus stop and direction to him.

I don't have the books I'm afraid, but from what I can remember, when examined closely, the details don't match up, and that is why the alibi was not able to be made more of in court. It is the Rhyl alibi all over again in that the details are all mis-matching (e.g. witnesses alleging they saw Hanratty at a time he could not have been there/said himself he wasnt there).

NB this was in the third statement Nudds made.He made a second which implicated Alphon and this is from his last statement which is similar to the first but he has added to it and altered changed and added to the first

And let's not forget this was all supposed to have happened on a day when it is known Hanratty was in London with the Frances.
It is quite important to remember here,Jen, that William Nudds was the man who brought J.Ryan into the A6 murder case----not only did he introduce him but immediately placed him centre stage-Nudds had this to say about the vexed question of Hanratty"s accent :

Ryan[Hanratty] had an accent--possibly Irish......


So it wasn"t just Mrs Dinwoody who thought he had a celtic accent!

From statement no 3 by Nudds--which he had added to after the contradictory 2nd statement implicating Alphon.

Last edited by Natalie Severn : 02-07-2011 at 07:40 PM.
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