Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Motive, Method and Madness: JtR was Law Enforcement Hypothesis - by jerryd 2 hours ago.
Motive, Method and Madness: JtR was Law Enforcement Hypothesis - by Michael W Richards 4 hours ago.
Motive, Method and Madness: JtR was Law Enforcement Hypothesis - by Michael W Richards 4 hours ago.
Maybrick, James: And This Is Factual! - by DirectorDave 7 hours ago.
Motive, Method and Madness: JtR was Law Enforcement Hypothesis - by Busy Beaver 8 hours ago.
Motive, Method and Madness: JtR was Law Enforcement Hypothesis - by Herlock Sholmes 9 hours ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Motive, Method and Madness: JtR was Law Enforcement Hypothesis - (8 posts)
Maybrick, James: Diary Handwriting - (5 posts)
Maybrick, James: And This Is Factual! - (4 posts)
Maybrick, James: One Incontrovertible, Unequivocal, Undeniable Fact Which Refutes the Diary - (2 posts)
Rippercast: Questions for Michael Hawley - Jack the Ripper Suspect Dr. Francis Tumblety - (2 posts)
Tumblety, Francis: The English Detective - (1 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > General Suspect Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-09-2015, 05:35 AM
Harry D Harry D is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 2,141
Question Did the Seaside Home ID happen?

I'd be interested to know people's thoughts on the Seaside Home Identification of the Jewish suspect. I know there are some who speculate that Robert Anderson was suffering from bad recall and had confused the event with the identification of James Sadler in the Frances Coles murder. Granted, I'm not quite sure how Anderson can confuse an unsuccessful identification of a non-Jewish suspect with the successful ID of a Jewish suspect at a seaside home where the witness refused to testify. There's bad memory and then there's just making things up.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-09-2015, 06:09 AM
Hunter Hunter is offline
Chief Inspector
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,734
Default

If it was just Anderson's recall here a case could be made that his recollection could have been flawed since there are known examples. However Swanson's added input in a private annotation gives credence to the probability that some ID attempt took place, even if the reasoning about the result may still be speculative.
__________________
Best Wishes,
Hunter
____________________________________________

When evidence is not to be had, theories abound. Even the most plausible of them do not carry conviction- London Times Nov. 10.1888
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-09-2015, 06:20 AM
c.d. c.d. is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,516
Default

I think it did happen but the description of what took place was tweaked by Anderson to make himself look good. "See, we did find the killer but the witness refused to testify." In reality, if the witness was in fact really sure of his identification, I think enormous pressure would have been put on him to testify.

c.d.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-09-2015, 09:09 AM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 9,035
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry D View Post
I'd be interested to know people's thoughts on the Seaside Home Identification of the Jewish suspect. I know there are some who speculate that Robert Anderson was suffering from bad recall and had confused the event with the identification of James Sadler in the Frances Coles murder. Granted, I'm not quite sure how Anderson can confuse an unsuccessful identification of a non-Jewish suspect with the successful ID of a Jewish suspect at a seaside home where the witness refused to testify. There's bad memory and then there's just making things up.
Strictly speaking Harry, all Anderson claimed was that his suspect was a Polish Jew, and that the only person who had a good view of the murderer "unhesitatingly" identified him, but refused to give evidence against him.

Where this took place is not identified by Anderson, for that we look to Swanson.
It was Swanson who identified the location of the I.D., the name of Anderson's suspect, and the reason the witness refused to testify.

If there are any faults in these details, these faults must be laid at Swanson's door, not Anderson's.
It is probably just as well to mention that Swanson was only identifying Anderson's suspect, he was not saying Kozminski was his suspect.

It was suggested some years ago that Swanson meant the Seaman's Home, which is right there in the East End, that idea makes sense to me.
__________________
Regards, Jon S.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-09-2015, 10:21 AM
Harry D Harry D is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 2,141
Default

Isn't the Seaman's Home where Sadler's attempted ID took place?

In such a high-profile case, I don't think the senior officers of the time would've mixed up events. If Swanson wrote the 'seaside home' we don't have any reason to doubt him. That said, I can understand them interpolating their own wish-fulfillment into the case. For example, perhaps the Jewish witness didn't ID the suspect per se, but there was some flicker of recognition which the police noticed, as a result they rationalized that the witness knew the suspect but the lack of ID was down to the two of them being fellow Jews.

Then we have the witness. Who was he? The only Jewish witnesses we know of who came closest to seeing the Ripper were Lawende & Schwartz. By his own admission Lawende didn't get a good look at the man, and Schwartz seems to drop out of the picture. We know it couldn't have been Lawende, otherwise why would they have used him in the identifications of Sadler & Grainger? Begging the question why Lawende was even being used to identify potential Ripper suspects if Anderson's man had already been identified?

Grrragh. Everything about the 'seaside home ID' poses more questions than answers.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-09-2015, 10:40 AM
pinkmoon pinkmoon is offline
Chief Inspector
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: north west of england
Posts: 1,813
Default

What if a policeman did see something and it came to light after the murders the pc white story might well be a variation on this.The most obvious reason for taking a suspect so far away to a police convelence home is to meet a policeman who was staying there.There must have been lots of easier places in London to arrange an I.d attempt.
__________________
Three things in life that don't stay hidden for to long ones the sun ones the moon and the other is the truth
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-09-2015, 10:43 AM
pinkmoon pinkmoon is offline
Chief Inspector
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: north west of england
Posts: 1,813
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by c.d. View Post
I think it did happen but the description of what took place was tweaked by Anderson to make himself look good. "See, we did find the killer but the witness refused to testify." In reality, if the witness was in fact really sure of his identification, I think enormous pressure would have been put on him to testify.

c.d.
Thank you CD I have been saying this for ages there is no way a witness would be left in peace by the police if he refused to identify a witness in such a high profile case.
__________________
Three things in life that don't stay hidden for to long ones the sun ones the moon and the other is the truth
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-09-2015, 11:29 AM
PaulB PaulB is offline
Inspector
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,461
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pinkmoon View Post
Thank you CD I have been saying this for ages there is no way a witness would be left in peace by the police if he refused to identify a witness in such a high profile case.
This is a question which has been addressed many times over the years and the point made is that no great interval seems to have separated the identification and the committal of Kosminski by his family. The police may have put extreme pressure on the witness, they may even have got him to agree to give evidence, but the game play was completely changed when Kosminski was certified insane and, presumably, deemed unfit to plead.

Whether or not this is possibly what happened depends on the interval. My take on that is that it was very short, not more than a couple of days and perhaps not even that.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-09-2015, 12:50 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 9,035
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pinkmoon View Post
What if a policeman did see something and it came to light after the murders the pc white story might well be a variation on this.The most obvious reason for taking a suspect so far away to a police convelence home is to meet a policeman who was staying there.There must have been lots of easier places in London to arrange an I.d attempt.
That avenue was also explored, indications were looked for to see if either Watkins or Harvey had ended up in a Policeman's Convalescent Home at any time.

The Seaside Home in Brighton, thought to be the one referred to, was for Met. Policemen as far as I recall.
However, Macnaghten implied it was a City PC who saw the killer, though that reference was eventually removed.

This may be worth a read, if you have not already done so...
http://casebook.org/dissertations/dst-koz9.html
__________________
Regards, Jon S.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-09-2015, 01:50 PM
pinkmoon pinkmoon is offline
Chief Inspector
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: north west of england
Posts: 1,813
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
That avenue was also explored, indications were looked for to see if either Watkins or Harvey had ended up in a Policeman's Convalescent Home at any time.

The Seaside Home in Brighton, thought to be the one referred to, was for Met. Policemen as far as I recall.
However, Macnaghten implied it was a City PC who saw the killer, though that reference was eventually removed.

This may be worth a read, if you have not already done so...
http://casebook.org/dissertations/dst-koz9.html
Let's just suppose that a policeman had a close encounter with the ripper shortly after one of the murders but for what ever reason it wasn't reported at the time could this story have circulated within the police force and eventually come to the attention of senior police officers sometime later who then took the opputunity to discreetly try and identify the suspect.
__________________
Three things in life that don't stay hidden for to long ones the sun ones the moon and the other is the truth

Last edited by pinkmoon : 05-09-2015 at 01:54 PM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:28 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.