Social class of Jack the Ripper

[David Orsam]

Very. But Iīm not doing this for the fun of it. And nobody has my data, beacause if they did, everybody would know the name of the killer.

We all do know the name Pierre, we're just teasing you by pretending not to.

[Pierre]

We all do know the name Pierre, we're just teasing you by pretending not to.

Great to hear. I am the only one who think I have found him and everybody else already have. The whole forum is a forum for teasing Pierre. Now I begin to slowly come out of the cage and see the light.

Regards Pierre

[Pierre]

Are you saying that all that information, about the name of Mary Jane, her address and the date of her murder, was in 'a metaphorical language'? Or are you saying that information was in plain English with the rest of the letter being in a metaphorical language?

Why do I have a strange feeling it's the former?

He gives the name and adress in a metaphorical language. The rest is plain English. He doesnīt sign it Jack the Ripper. He uses another name. It was published in two newspapers.

Regards Pierre

[David Orsam]

He gives the name and adress in a metaphorical language.

I see. So, in a letter in which the date of 9 November (Lord Mayor's Day) happens to have been mentioned, you have managed to tease out both the name of Mary Jane Kelly and the address of 13 Miller's Court even though neither Mary Jane Kelly nor 13 Miller's Court is actually mentioned in the letter.

Have I got that right?

[Pierre]

I see. So, in a letter in which the date of 9 November (Lord Mayor's Day) happens to have been mentioned, you have managed to tease out both the name of Mary Jane Kelly and the address of 13 Miller's Court even though neither Mary Jane Kelly nor 13 Miller's Court is actually mentioned in the letter.

Have I got that right?

It is my interpretation of the letter. And it can of course be wrong. Historical sources are constantly being interpreted and reinterpreted. And you can never build a theory only on a few sources with a low or medium high validity, which I think can be said of the validity of this source.

There are also other important aspects of the contents in this source that I can not describe here.

But I do believe he is trying to outsmart the police.

Regards Pierre

[David Orsam]

It is my interpretation of the letter. And it can of course be wrong.

Okay, well thanks for clarifying.

If you had actually found a letter published in a newspaper prior to 9 November 1888 mentioning Mary Jane Kelly, her address in Miller's Court and the date of 9 November then I would be forced to concede that you had found a letter from her murderer.

But you obviously haven't.

And it seems to me, I'm afraid, that the likelihood of you having deciphered the author's 'metaphorical language' correctly is 99.9% against.

[David Orsam]

Pierre - are you able to tell me if the letter in the press that you refer to is in digital format, so that it can be found with an electronic search online, or is it only in a hard copy newspaper or microfilm?

I'm not asking this because I want to locate it, I have a different reason for asking, so would welcome a response.

[Pierre]

Pierre - are you able to tell me if the letter in the press that you refer to is in digital format, so that it can be found with an electronic search online, or is it only in a hard copy newspaper or microfilm?

I'm not asking this because I want to locate it, I have a different reason for asking, so would welcome a response.

The format is digital, David.

Regards Pierre

[David Orsam]

Ah okay, thanks, because if it wasn't searchable I was going to ask you to post the text of the letter or an extract from it (as that would not identify the author, whose name you seem to be keen to protect).

But as I don't quite understand what you mean by 'metaphorical language', can we try something?

Will you post for us a hypothetical example of a similar type of letter by the same author (but devised by you, putting yourself in his shoes) which refers to the forthcoming murder of Catherine Eddowes in Mitre Square on 30 September 1888?

Basically I'm asking you to copy the style of the 'metaphorical language' (or code, if that is what you mean) by way of example so that I and the rest of the board can see roughly what you are talking about.

[packers stem]

Ah okay, thanks, because if it wasn't searchable I was going to ask you to post the text of the letter or an extract from it (as that would not identify the author, whose name you seem to be keen to protect).

But as I don't quite understand what you mean by 'metaphorical language', can we try something?

Will you post for us a hypothetical example of a similar type of letter by the same author (but devised by you, putting yourself in his shoes) which refers to the forthcoming murder of Catherine Eddowes in Mitre Square on 30 September 1888?

Basically I'm asking you to copy the style of the 'metaphorical language' (or code, if that is what you mean) by way of example so that I and the rest of the board can see roughly what you are talking about.

Hi David
Haven't found myself backing up Pierre before but I can't imagine for the life of me why he would wish to create a letter purely to satisfy our curiosity so we can hunt down the letter by comparison.
I've given up bothering about Pierre as i've come to realise that his data appears to come from casebook anyway
He has dropped a few hints recently which makes things a little more interesting i suppose but i think it's best to just forget about it all and wait...and wait...and wait

[Pierre]

Ah okay, thanks, because if it wasn't searchable I was going to ask you to post the text of the letter or an extract from it (as that would not identify the author, whose name you seem to be keen to protect).

But as I don't quite understand what you mean by 'metaphorical language', can we try something?

Will you post for us a hypothetical example of a similar type of letter by the same author (but devised by you, putting yourself in his shoes) which refers to the forthcoming murder of Catherine Eddowes in Mitre Square on 30 September 1888?

Basically I'm asking you to copy the style of the 'metaphorical language' (or code, if that is what you mean) by way of example so that I and the rest of the board can see roughly what you are talking about.

Hi David,

I see what you mean but I think that if I wrote such a text you would all become very confused and I think that you already have to many confusing texts from me.

But I will try to explan what I mean in an honest way.

The text he wrote seems very innocent and normal at first glance. It contains rather boring talk about a common subject and he seems to have a normal but rather pointless message in the text.

But the text looks a bit strange since he writes a lot of details that are redundant to the subject and to his message. There are some details that neednīt be there.

The details constitutes words that are hinting at Tennysonīs writings.

The wording also seem polite at first glance. But he uses certain words to make ironic statements about the police.

Then you find that he combines words to give the adress to Millerīs Court.

And when you understand his hint at Tennyson, you can see why he posed the body of Mary Jane the way he did.

He is trying to outsmart the police.

This letter is not a part of finding the killer. I just happened to find it and it is not an important piece of data in my theory.

There is also another aspect of this letter which I am sorry to say I cannot reveal now but I will think about getting back to that if you donīt find it first.

Regards Pierre

[David Orsam]

Hi David
Haven't found myself backing up Pierre before but I can't imagine for the life of me why he would wish to create a letter purely to satisfy our curiosity so we can hunt down the letter by comparison

Why you are interfering in a conversation I am having with Pierre I cannot imagine. I did not ask him to do this exercise to satisfy my curiosity nor to hunt down the letter. I am trying to understand what he means by 'metaphorical language' in the context of a letter which supposedly identifies Mary Jane Kelly and her address, because on the face of it this makes no sense, unless he means a code or an anagram. In other words, I was trying to understand what he meant in a post he addressed to me, so perhaps I could ask you to restrain yourself from telling me what I can or cannot post.

[David Orsam]

This letter is not a part of finding the killer. I just happened to find it and it is not an important piece of data in my theory.

Thanks for replying Pierre, although I must confess to not understanding a single word of the explanation, but I want to focus in my reply on the above quoted statement from your post.

Supposedly, as you told us, you have identified a letter published in the press prior to the murder of Mary Jane Kelly about which you said:

'I can only allow myself to think that letters predicting the murders could have been written by the murderer.

I have found such a letter (unknown by ripperology) in the press. He uses a metaphorical language and gives the adress to Millerīs Court, the name of Mary Jane Kelly, her room number and the date of the murder.'

A letter in which a writer gives the name of Mary Jane Kelly, her full address and the date of her murder published prior to 9 November 1888!!!

Now you say: oh actually, that letter's not very important to my theory.

In your post, you haven't even bothered to explain how the writer of the letter included the name of Mary Jane Kelly in his letter.

So basically there is no mention at all of Mary Jane Kelly or her address in that letter in any kind of language, metaphorical or otherwise. Is that a fair statement?

[Mayerling]

Hi David,

I see what you mean but I think that if I wrote such a text you would all become very confused and I think that you already have to many confusing texts from me.

But I will try to explan what I mean in an honest way.

The text he wrote seems very innocent and normal at first glance. It contains rather boring talk about a common subject and he seems to have a normal but rather pointless message in the text.

But the text looks a bit strange since he writes a lot of details that are redundant to the subject and to his message. There are some details that neednīt be there.

The details constitutes words that are hinting at Tennysonīs writings.

The wording also seem polite at first glance. But he uses certain words to make ironic statements about the police.

Then you find that he combines words to give the adress to Millerīs Court.

And when you understand his hint at Tennyson, you can see why he posed the body of Mary Jane the way he did.

He is trying to outsmart the police.

This letter is not a part of finding the killer. I just happened to find it and it is not an important piece of data in my theory.

There is also another aspect of this letter which I am sorry to say I cannot reveal now but I will think about getting back to that if you donīt find it first.

Regards Pierre

Well, Pierre, I have to admit this stimulates me a little bit. I can't see it getting us anywhere, but it does strikes some notes.

Were you aware that Alfred, Lord Tennyson, was fascinated by old murder cases? He was. This is from Richard Altick's, "Victorian Studies in Scarlet: Murders and Manners in the Age of Victoria" (New York, Norton, 1970), p. 125:

"A third Trinity College man in 1828-31 was Alfred Tennyon. The abundant anecdotal material in print has as little to say about his interest in crime as it does about his fondness for rude limericks, no doubt because his contemporaries, when they recorded their memories of him, felt that such enthusiasms were beneath the dignity of a Poet Laureate. There is, however, no question that Tennyson ws, in this regard as so many others, a true Victorian. In 1859, visiting the Tennysons at their Isle of Wight home, the Oxford mathematics don, Charles Lutwidge Dodgson ("Lewis Carroll") write to a cousin, "Up in the smoking-room the conversation turned upon murders, and Tennyson told us several horrible stories from his own experience --- he seems rather to revel in such descriptions --- one would not guess it from his poetry." Nor would one guess that the author of "Alice in Wonderland" would relish such descriptions; and his rather prissy tone suggests that he didn't.
Later in the century Tyson had a similar talk-fest with another don, this time Benjamin Jowett, translator of Plato and master of Balliol College. The story comes from H. B. Irving, son of the great actor and himself a well-regarded writer on true crime, who recalled his father telling him that "sitting up late one night talking with Tennyson, the latter remarked that he had not kept such late hours since a recent visit of Jowett. on that occasion the poet and the philosopher had talked together well into the small hours of the morning. My father asked Tennyson what was the subject of the conversation that had engrossed them. 'Murders,' replied Tennyson." One would give much to know which Victorian atrocities especially appealed to the Poet Laureate."

P. 316 [Footnotes]

Lewis Carroll on Tennyson's interest in murder: Florence Becker Lennon, "Lewis Carroll" (London, 1947), p. 73.
Jowett's testimony: H. B. Irving, "A Book of Remarkable Criminals" (New York,1918), p.11.

Tennyson was also a friend of Michael Maybrick, the brother of James Maybrick and author of lyrics to several hymns, like "The Holy City". James has been suggested as a suspect in the Ripper murders, but most students of the case reject him (the "diary" that tied him to the case is suspect). Recently Michael Maybrick himself has been suggested as the actual Ripper. And, of course, Lewis Carroll has also been suggested as a suspect.

As for Tennyson himself, the only other link to true crime is one of his descendants was that excellent writer on the subject, F. Tennyson Jesse ("Murder and It's Motives"). Of course you did not say the Poet Lauriate was suspect, you just mentioned that the letter you found hinted at some of his writings. Anyone could have done that in a letter.

Jeff

[Pierre]

Thanks for replying Pierre, although I must confess to not understanding a single word of the explanation, but I want to focus in my reply on the above quoted statement from your post.

Supposedly, as you told us, you have identified a letter published in the press prior to the murder of Mary Jane Kelly about which you said:

'I can only allow myself to think that letters predicting the murders could have been written by the murderer.

I have found such a letter (unknown by ripperology) in the press. He uses a metaphorical language and gives the adress to Millerīs Court, the name of Mary Jane Kelly, her room number and the date of the murder.'

A letter in which a writer gives the name of Mary Jane Kelly, her full address and the date of her murder published prior to 9 November 1888!!!

Now you say: oh actually, that letter's not very important to my theory.

In your post, you haven't even bothered to explain how the writer of the letter included the name of Mary Jane Kelly in his letter.

So basically there is no mention at all of Mary Jane Kelly or her address in that letter in any kind of language, metaphorical or otherwise. Is that a fair statement?

Hi,

The source isnīt important even if it is interesting since it does (only) confirm what I already think I know about him. But it is not the starting point for the theory and it is not one of the corner stones of it. I have other sources on which the theory is built.

If I interpret this unimportant but interesting source correctly he does give the adress and name. He also uses another name for himself.

My impression is that he is taunting the police and giving them a clue as to where he is going to commit his next crime. That is why he is writing in a metaphorical style. He wants to see if the police can figure out his message.

As I have stated in previous posts, taunting the police is a very important aspect of his MO. I really believe that he wants to give them an opportunity to almost finding him.

There is another piece of communication which confirms my interpretation of this letter. I can not give you anymore information about this right now. But you will have it all when I am finished with it. Even if I am wrong.

He has left a trail in history. He did so because he thought he was superior to the police.

I believe that is why I think I have found him. I found his trail.

Regards Pierre