Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: The Nature of Evidence - by Elamarna 29 minutes ago.
Non-Fiction: Deconstructing Jack by Simon Wood - by David Orsam 33 minutes ago.
Non-Fiction: Deconstructing Jack by Simon Wood - by David Orsam 40 minutes ago.
Non-Fiction: Deconstructing Jack by Simon Wood - by David Orsam 40 minutes ago.
Non-Fiction: Deconstructing Jack by Simon Wood - by David Orsam 41 minutes ago.
Non-Fiction: Deconstructing Jack by Simon Wood - by Simon Wood 6 hours ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: The Nature of Evidence - (50 posts)
Non-Fiction: Deconstructing Jack by Simon Wood - (26 posts)
Motive, Method and Madness: Lechmere Triple Event - (18 posts)
"The Royal Conspiracy": Annie and Alice Crook photographs. - (5 posts)
Shades of Whitechapel: Favorite Films (lists up to participating site members) - (4 posts)
Audio -- Visual: Exorcist and JTR - (3 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Police Officials and Procedures > Neil, P.C. John

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #101  
Old 04-30-2017, 10:13 AM
The Station Cat The Station Cat is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 303
Default

Beat Number 3 as conducted by PC97J John NEIL on the 31st August 1888.
Attached Images
 

Last edited by The Station Cat : 04-30-2017 at 10:15 AM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #102  
Old 04-30-2017, 10:28 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: South london
Posts: 3,048
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Station Cat View Post
Beat Number 3 as conducted by PC97J John NEIL on the 31st August 1888.
Hi station cat

The first of your two posts was in post #41 your map is slightly different from that in post
43, the major differences being Winthrop street and how this was approached and the Northern end of Queen Anne street which you have left off. Queen Anne interests me so can I ask the reasoning for that decision?


Cheers


Steve
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #103  
Old 04-30-2017, 10:33 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: South london
Posts: 3,048
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Station Cat View Post
Beat Number 3 as conducted by PC97J John NEIL on the 31st August 1888.
Have to say also confused how this proposal for the route actually workd, he was walking from the west end of Bucks Row when he found Nichols and one assume he was therefore working clockwise. The division at Winthrope really seems out.

I personally think the one in post #43 works better , but am open to persuasion on it as it's not set in stone

Steve
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #104  
Old 04-30-2017, 10:42 AM
The Station Cat The Station Cat is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 303
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
Hi station cat

The first of your two posts was in post #41 your map is slightly different from that in post
43, the major differences being Winthrop street and how this was approached and the Northern end of Queen Anne street which you have left off. Queen Anne interests me so can I ask the reasoning for that decision?


Cheers


Steve
Steve, Thanks for pointing out post #41 for me, missed that one. Was so proud of myself really thought I was onto something with my map (which took me ages to do, I hasten to add) & the newspaper report, which I see is also old news .


I agreed Queen Anne Street is a puzzle, I wonder if the beats overlapped in places. I'm assuming that the Northern Part of it would have been covered in the same beat that covered the Northern part of Baker's Row perhaps, but I'm just guessing here. Unless the bobby walked up one side and down the other, thus doubling back on himself, which isn't an unreasonable hypothesis? All I've got to go on is the newspaper report, as the original beat maps have long since been lost. But moving onto Winthrop street, I'm just guessing here, otherwise it appears that it wouldn't have been included in a beat, which would appear odd? Am I right in thinking this was mostly commercial buildings (slaughter house/Thain's cape fame, etc??).
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #105  
Old 04-30-2017, 10:54 AM
The Station Cat The Station Cat is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 303
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
Have to say also confused how this proposal for the route actually workd, he was walking from the west end of Bucks Row when he found Nichols and one assume he was therefore working clockwise. The division at Winthrope really seems out.

I personally think the one in post #43 works better , but am open to persuasion on it as it's not set in stone

Steve

Steve, yeh I'll have that #43 does certainly appear more accurate, but mine is more aesthetically pleasing

But on a plus note, the newspaper report does confirm my hypothesis about staffing levels, with nine beats for 5 bobbies.............
Attached Images
 
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #106  
Old 04-30-2017, 11:07 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: South london
Posts: 3,048
Default

P
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Station Cat View Post
Steve, Thanks for pointing out post #41 for me, missed that one. Was so proud of myself really thought I was onto something with my map (which took me ages to do, I hasten to add) & the newspaper report, which I see is also old news .

No still good that you found it. That is good research.



I agreed Queen Anne Street is a puzzle, I wonder if the beats overlapped in places. I'm assuming that the Northern Part of it would have been covered in the same beat that covered the Northern part of Baker's Row perhaps, but I'm just guessing here. Unless the bobby walked up one side and down the other, thus doubling back on himself, which isn't an unreasonable hypothesis?

I assume that the plan in #43 allowed for the comment about yards and alleys and the one to the north end of Queen Anne (Elizabeth place) is the only really large one..
In addition the Northern end seems to be a dead end and no obvious enter for another officer on another beat. So seems easiest if on same beat.


All I've got to go on is the newspaper report, as the original beat maps have long since been lost. But moving onto Winthrop street, I'm just guessing here, otherwise it appears that it wouldn't have been included in a beat, which would appear odd? Am I right in thinking this was mostly commercial buildings (slaughter house/Thain's cape fame, etc??).
I think the suggestion was that if one starts at the junction of Bucks/Brady he went right into Winthorpe, checked both sides including several yards back to Brady right into Whitechapel check both roads which lead up to Bucks Row and back down each not crossing Bucks Row. Along Whitechapel to Bakers up to whites row checked along to north side entrance of Thomas, back to Bakers into Thomas up and down across to queen Anne, left to Elizabeth place and top of Queen Anne back to Bucks and along to Brady.
That I think was the proposal and it seems to cover the route you found.

However it does not mean it is the right route, and your work is good.


Steve
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #107  
Old 04-30-2017, 11:15 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: South london
Posts: 3,048
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Station Cat View Post
Steve, yeh I'll have that #43 does certainly appear more accurate, but mine is more aesthetically pleasing

But on a plus note, the newspaper report does confirm my hypothesis about staffing levels, with nine beats for 5 bobbies.............
Seeing the map again I forgot the bridge up to Winthrope and the poster Franko I think did not have the turn into whites row going as far as I said.

I think both are good efforts given what details we do have.

All the best

Steve
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #108  
Old 05-01-2017, 04:58 AM
The Station Cat The Station Cat is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 303
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Station Cat View Post
Echo
London, U.K.
21 September 1888

EAST END MURDERS
THE POLICEMEN'S NIGHT BEATS
THE PRESENT PRECAUTIONS
A Correspondent has obtained exact details of those police beats covering the area within which the Buck's row murder was committed. From this it will be seen that the murderer had no doubt a considerable time in which he was quite sure of being undisturbed by a police constable, assuming he knew the beats. It seems that, notwithstanding the frequent repetition of murders round Whitechapel, under circumstances leading to the conclusion that they were the work of one man, not one single extra police officer was put upon the ground until after the commission of the fourth and last murder. Then the streets were filled night and by by police in and out of uniform.

During the month of August, and up to the 8th instant, when Annie Chapman was killed, the following beats were covered by the men of the J Division quartered at Bethnal Green, these forming what is known as the "Second Section night duty." The first police constable would commence his two beats at Wilmot street, three Colt land, Cheshire street, Mape street, Bethnal Green road, to Wilmot street, and the interior, this consisting of a few streets, courts, passages, &c. The second constable would cover Three Colt lane, Collingwood street, Darling row, Dog row, Whitechapel road, Brady street, to Three Colt lane, and the interior, this consisting of about twenty streets, courts, passages, &c; the third constable would commence at Brady street, cover Whitechapel road, Baker's row, Thomas street, Queen Anne street, and Buck's row, to Brady street, and all the interior, this consisting of about ten streets, courts, passage, &c. The fourth constable would commence at Baker's row, go through Nottingham street, White street, Bethnal Green road, Mape street, London street, to Baker's row, and all the interior, consisting of about thirty streets, courts, passages, &c. The fifth and last man of the section would cover Whitechapel road alone, this making a total of nine beats for the five constables. The third beat was the one within the limit of which Mrs. Nicholl (sic) was murdered. The exterior of the beats are at least a mile in extent, and to this distance must be added the interiors.

Working on the above as a guide (and with no period map to work from, hence the use of google maps - if someone has one that I could us, I'd be in their debt), I have come up with this rough guide as to the beats patrolled by the bobbies stationed at Bethnal Green Police Station.

You will note that there appears to be a gap big enough for perhaps two more beats, next to Bethnal Green Garden and St Bartholmew Garden, I suspect that this area would have been covered by bobbies from Cambridge Heath Road Station (J Division), who I would assume had 5 more beats, that covered up to the boundary of Hackney (still on J Division) and Stepney (K Division).

So we have 9 beats to cover with 5 bobbies, include into this fixed point locations and bobbies at the station, manning the front counter and custody etc, with perhaps a few more on standby in the event of a major incident (I believe these would have been the one's that answered PC Mizen's call for assistance, when he was dispatched to Bethnal Green, by PC Neil.)

We know that there were 12 bobbies and one Sgt resident in Bethnal Green Station. We know that Sgt Kirby worked from Bethnal Green Station (but must have lived in the immediate community as he isn't on the census as being resident). The same can be said for Neil & Thane. From my research I can add PC James Chappell to this list and possibly PC Joseph Daniels, we also have PC Thomas Gordon and PC John Murphy to add to this list. So that's roughly 16 bobbies that we can be fairly sure of that worked at Bethnal Green Station, at the time. But obviously we can't be sure whether they all worked on the same shift. But using it as another rough guide. We'd need 3 shifts, to cover a 24 hours period, so that's 48 bobbies or there about's out of the 417 that were part of J Division, in 1888. Out of this we know that Kirby,Neil & Thane had a direct involvement in the Nichols murder with Gordon & Murphy involved in the search for Leather Apron. It stands to reason , considering how few bobbies there actually was covering this area that that night, that more bobbies must have been involved, such a shame that their names have been lost to history.
Attached Images
 

Last edited by The Station Cat : 05-01-2017 at 05:25 AM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #109  
Old 05-01-2017, 06:08 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: South london
Posts: 3,048
Default

Cat

There are great period maps avaliable online. The one below allows the use of multiple period maps and a present day Google overlay.


http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom...layers=163&b=1

you may find it very helpful in your research.

All the best

Steve
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #110  
Old 05-01-2017, 03:22 PM
The Station Cat The Station Cat is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 303
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
Cat

There are great period maps avaliable online. The one below allows the use of multiple period maps and a present day Google overlay.


http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom...layers=163&b=1

you may find it very helpful in your research.

All the best

Steve

Thanks Steve
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 01:28 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.